Permission to Keep Living, Part II: Turns Out... You Survive

A quick note before we begin: Today's conversation includes grief, death, and loss. If you're in a tender place, we invite you to listen when and if it feels supportive. Please take care of yourself first.

In Part II of Permission to Keep Living, we continue one of the most personal conversations we've ever had.

This episode isn't about "moving on." It's about what happens after the casseroles stop coming, when the world keeps spinning, and you're left figuring out how to keep living.

We talk honestly about what grief actually looks like, the well-intentioned things that hurt, the unexpected acts of kindness that helped, why talking about the people we've lost matters, and how healing isn't about forgetting. It's about learning to carry love and loss at the same time.

We also explore the surprising role of expressive writing, why asking for help can feel impossible, and how even our deepest pain can become a source of compassion, purpose, and connection.

Whether you're grieving someone you love, supporting someone who is, or carrying a loss that still feels close, we hope this conversation reminds you that there is no "right" way to grieve, and that you don't have to do it alone.

Stay self-aware. Stay a little unhinged. And remember: you have permission to keep living.

Katalina’s book: https://heyzine.com/flip-book/589021b59c.html

💫 Email us at theunhingedintuitives@gmail.com for questions, comments, or topic requests, we would love to hear from you!

🌿 Work with Jane-Marie: www.transformativehealings.com

✨ Follow, rate, and share if this resonated.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome back, weirdos. Welcome! A few weeks ago we released Permission to Keep Living, and both of us got off that episode and had a quick chat, and we realized we weren't done and we wanted to revisit it. So we're back. I'm Carrie and I'm Jane. Welcome to Unhinged, the Intuitive Weirdos, the podcast for people doing the inner work while still very much being human.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Here we will explore deep topics that encourage our growth and mental health. No gurus, no dogma, just navigating through life's asteroids while trying not to spill your coffee on your morning commute. Just exploring with curiosity where we fit into the whole cosmic puzzle.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Another warning. This will be again addressing more, you know, grief, death, children's death. So you've been warned. So there, yes, you have. All right. I wanted to hop into because the biggest thing, like, when we finished the last episode, obviously that was too much to share in just a little bit of time. Right. And I left there thinking, like, two things hit me. The first one I want to talk about is you left off talking about how at certain points you weaponized your grief. Yes. And so, like, tell me, walk me through what that meant for you and like how that how that showed up.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

It really developed into like a like an ego booster almost, like in a in a weird, twisted way. Because when I get to know somebody or whatever, and they're asking me the story, and like, how many kids do you have? You know, it's like, I never know how to answer this question, you know, and they're like, What do you mean? And I'm like, barf my whole story out, right? And then that always leaves them inevitably with holy shit, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I wasn't prepared for that. I didn't know. Uh, you know, and that like it, I dumped that on them, right? And I which sometimes it's you know, I mean, that's what happened, right? But you know, it was without um any consideration for how that story would leave them. It was more of look how strong I am that I've been able to survive something like that, you know? So it wasn't so much of like this is how I've healed as much as it was, you know, I'm I'm pretty I'm pretty badass for having gone through that and still being here, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Okay, how how much do you think of two things when you say that? Like, how much of that is just a protective shield? And how how much is our society tries to pretend like death doesn't happen, especially to kids?

SPEAKER_00 2:43

Right. Um, I would say now that you asked me that question, I've never had had that question posed to me, um, as it being a shield, a protection, um, I would agree with that, you know. I mean, how else? I mean, because the scar was so thick and so wide and so big, like how do you, you know, when you form new skin over an event that's so traumatic, right? A wound that's so deep, you know? And so when that wound is still so tender and so, you know, I mean, you're just barely able to, you know, get through your daily life now. Um, you know, obviously I'm gonna have to um do things to protect myself and all that type of stuff, you know? So yeah, that's just kind of how that happened to turn out.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Because when I think of like weaponizing something, I think it's done intentionally, you know, like in intentionally to hurt someone else. And I think sometimes because it's it's just uncomfortable to talk about death. Because even even when I talk about my nephew, I I call him my angel nephew because I also feel it's a disservice if I pretend like he just never existed, even though his life was short, he still was a human on this planet.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

That's that's so true, and that's one thing that people really get squinchy about about kids, is um just not, especially when a child passes away, they don't they don't know what to say, they don't know how to act, they don't know how to do any of that type of stuff. So that was a very real thing. And I think I touched on this on the last episode where people clammed up and said absolutely nothing and they didn't they didn't mention it or anything. And it's like, am I being gaslighted by the entire fucking world about a child that I loved so dearly? Like I loved her as much as anybody loves their children, you know, and all of a sudden everybody's walking around like she didn't exist. Who the fuck is that, you know? So that but I I get it, I understand it now. I understand it because it is such a taboo thing, you know? And so my whole thing in telling my story to anyone who had ears was like number one, it is okay to talk about this stuff, right? And people that have lost a child or know someone who's lost a child, they want to fucking talk about it. Please mention their name, please say their name, please ask what was their favorite thing to do, what was their favorite foods, what was your favorite memory of them? Like, ask those questions. Ask those questions. They they needed it, you know, like that helps that parent understand that she wasn't just like one single little, you know, little blip on the radar that nobody's ever gonna mention again, right? Like that's such an old school way of doing things, but you know, like think back in like the 1800s when you had 14 kids and you know, knowing a couple of them were gonna die, it's just well, just pull yourself up by the bootstraps. We got, you know, chickens to you know, feed and cows to milk and that type of thing, right? It's like you just kind of know you're gonna lose a couple. It's just kind of the nature of the business, but you know, and nobody ever says anything about it, you know. Um, for example, my dear cousin, um, her mom died when she was 10. I was 12. And um, that kind of happened in our family. Nobody ever mentioned it. Our grandma came by and you know, dropped off a bag of groceries for for her for their family, and then that was it, you know, and nobody ever said anything else. And just, well, we just keep going, you know, because that's what are you gonna do? Life just goes on, you know. So like there's that aspect of it. And then as far as me weaponizing it, um, it was more of like there was part of it that was just like you can go through something so extreme and come out of it on the other side, right? Without blame, without being angry, without, you know, all these other things that are not healthy emotions for you, right? Um, and it was there was also a little bit still of the um, look how strong I am, you know, yeah, look, look, gaze, gaze upon me for I'm a warrior, you know, like that type of thing.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

So, but but I think also though, like, because sometimes, okay, so it's been several decades, right? And now it's always easier, hindsight's always 2020, right? Oh, yes, and it's a lot easier to be like, oh, I wulda, coulda, shoulda. That's where I think like just having this conversation is important because I don't know how many people feel comfortable even asking questions. And like, as much as you say everybody, every parent wants to talk about their children, I'm sure there's a few that are the that would rather just pretend like that child never existed because the pain's so raw, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:06

I'm I'm just sure that that possibility exists, yes. And in all the other parents that I have talked to who have lost children, that is the common thread. In every other person that I have talked to that have that has lost a child, that is the common thread. But yes, I do acknowledge that there is, I'm sure there are people out there who like you just said, they it's just too painful, they don't want to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 7:28

Well, you know what's crazy is as much shock as I just had on your statement of pretending like your aunt wasn't there. Like, I talk about my nephew to my friends, um, but I don't talk about my angel nephew to my sister because she I know, and and I saw that look. Um she the first Christmas that he wasn't with us, um, we I gave like a journal in his memory to my sister, and like we tried to acknowledge him, and it was not received well. It it was yeah, it was met with a lot of um hostility and anger, um of just like how dare you, you guys didn't know him. Um and so for me that made me shut down feeling comfortable bringing him up. But I never thought to try again. Right. Well, you know, and it's like if you yeah, and then how long has it been for your sister? Yeah, so Brody's 13, so he would have been 15, so 15 years ago. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Um and you haven't approached the subject yet?

SPEAKER_01 8:40

No, if she brings him up, I listen and then talk about it, but I never feel comfortable bringing it up.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

Uh would you feel comfortable next time she does bring him up? For would you be comfortable asking her, is it okay to talk about him? You know, um are you okay with me asking questions or that type of thing?

SPEAKER_01 8:58

I guess you think she'd be open to that? Uh I mean, I'll I'll see. It could go either way. She could bring it up. Well, I mean, you only you only you won't know unless you try, and I'm sure you know what if on her side she's like, hey, you fucking assholes, like you never talk about him. So we do honor Late every year. We go to you know, Tori Pines and we leave flowers because um that's where you know he's been remembered, and so and but we only honor his birthday, not his death day. Um, so we do have our own little thing, but it's like now that we're talking about this, I only feel like I have permission one day a year to talk about him, and not in a sense of like I'm entitled to, because I do talk about him separately.

SPEAKER_00 9:45

I meant like talk about him with bringing it up with my sister, the one who's lost probably her kidacted by that. Yeah, very, very that's so interesting. Yeah, I you know, I haven't there was only one other time that I've run into somebody who had lost a child who was still like he was so like he carried sadness the way that it sounds like your sister carries anger around it. And um he, I think I'd spoken about him too, you know, he was um an advocate for um uh he he really got himself uh involved in drowning prevention programs and all the type of stuff. He's trying to do that at a state level um because of the incident that happened with his with his son when when he drowned at a summer camp out in Massachusetts. Yeah. So, you know, and I met him at a national conference once. And um I and even though it had been, oh God, I think it was maybe 10 years, you know, by that point, he was still, you know, keeping that alive, you know, keeping that sadness, that hurt alive, you know, because he felt like otherwise he would dishonor his son by um you know not grieving or not, you know, not feeling as bad about it. And I'm like, oh my God, what a burden to carry for the rest of your fucking life, yeah, like that, right? Like that's you know, and it's like I think about this for myself too. It's like I don't want to be callous about this, you know, yet it is an event that happened, and that's that's all that's what happened, right? Yeah, and ever obviously it took a lot of work to you know pick through and undo and untie all the knots uh regarding all of this type of thing. Yeah. Yet in the end, when it comes down to it, how I know that I am peaceful with myself is I recognize that it was an event that happened. And when you look at it on the grand scale and you zoom, I mean, zoom way, way out, it's no different than you know, you broke a shoelace or you lost your car keys or whatever it is, right? It's just the recovery is a lot more in-depth and takes a lot longer than it does for a broken shoelace and a missing set of keys, right? But the mechanism is the same, the you know, all that is the same. And I guess I just chose to have a very deep experience, you know, a very um intense um experience here on this this go-around.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

So yeah, well, and before you got to this place, you know, you and I have been having a lot of conversations lately about like at the end of the day, we're human beings and having a human experience. So it's not like a week or two after Catalina's death, it wasn't like you're like, oh well, that hurt wasn't it. That happened, let's go, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Let's go to Disneyland, right? That sucked. That sucked. Oh well, moving on, right? Well, that's what I'm saying. It's like it took a long, this is a long recovery on that shit, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Yeah, and understandably, and like who are we to judge? Like, it's not a straight line, I am sure it's a squiggly line, and everyone gets to choose their own adventure through grief. Yep. And some decide to take the really long road all the way to the end, and some decide to address it head on.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Well, and then some people decide to stop halfway. Yeah, you know, I've had I've had um close family members whenever I would mention her, tell me, you don't talk about her, we don't talk about that, we don't talk about death. I'm like, uh, I do. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, and I would skip I would be shut down, you know? And it's like that was that was very disconcerting. Yeah. But again, what do you do? Like, I I understand it now. I understand where they are and where they were coming from at the time, and that's where they were.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Do you think it's hard to give others permission to grieve when you're the parent?

SPEAKER_00 14:03

When people told me that, when people shut me down about it, I looked at it as they don't want to grieve. They want it's so painful that they're stuffing it down, and that's not the healthy way. Like you gotta feel it, you know? And it's like as stunted emotionally as I was in a lot of ways when that whole thing went down, even before that went down. Um, it just it didn't feel right. It didn't feel right to deliberately squash something that was an obvious thing that happened, right? Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

And when you were going through all that, did anyone like completely surprise you for the good or you know, better or worse? Did anyone surprise you during that process?

SPEAKER_00 14:48

The uh the most unfortunately when I look back at it, I got more surprises for the worse than the better. Um, because a lot of it, like I said, was like people climbing up or people saying, Well, you can just you already have your other son, you know, and and you can always have more kids and things like that. I'm like, Are you fucking kidding me? Like, she wasn't like it wasn't like I lost a flip-flop, right? And I could buy a new pair at freaking CVS, right? Like, this is a human being that I carried in my body, and you know, like, yeah, so so there was that, like that was awful. And then the people that just wouldn't say anything, right? And they just like, oh, we don't talk about that, or they just like, okay, so anyway, um, yeah, about that. Yeah, I gotta go. Yeah. Um, and I did have a, you know, a one friend in particular who she would just just listen. Like she would just and she would mention Catalina's name and she would ask me those questions, and she would, she was very understanding. And that was like even though she had not experienced that particular event for herself, she was still very understanding that this is an inconceivable grief that she is not uh privy to. Like she she doesn't she doesn't understand the level and the intensity of what I was going through, but she understands I was in some deep shit. I mean, some deep, deep, deep shit. Yeah. So, and that was that was very helpful to me to have her support.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

And I know we talked about, like, you know, that was kind of one of the things that you and I discussed, is like, okay, so some people mention her name once, or some people say or don't say anything, and then life keeps moving on. So you're stuck, you're staring at the clock, time's moving by, everyone's moving forward, and you feel like time standing still or going backwards.

unknown 16:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

What what like do you think you would have actually been able to receive like people coming in and doing your laundry or cleaning your house?

SPEAKER_00 16:52

I would have welcomed it because I just couldn't, you know, it's like while she was alive, like she was she she had so many medical problems that I had, I mean, our house was a whole medical center. I mean, we we're talking the giant oxygen tanks, like tons of them, the apnea monitors, all the like the tubing. She had a colostomy, so we had all those supplies all over the place. We had to change that. And then often we had to feed her by sticking a tube up her nose, around the oxygen tube, by the way, up her nose and then down into her stomach. You know, we had to listen with the stethoscope, make sure we got it into the stomach and not the lungs, you know, and then we had to like inject a giant syringe full of medicines and formulas and all this other type of shit, you know, and that's how she would eat because she couldn't eat, she was too weak to fucking eat, right? So that's how we got nutrition into her, right? So all of that's going on, and I am so completely overwhelmed. And they're sending over PT and OT and all these other whatever, whatever's and all this kind of stuff. And they're like, okay, well, did you call this person and you have to call this one and whatever? And I'm like, I I can't, I you know, and so I had one of them that was really kind of hounding me, you know, to call, I don't even remember who I was supposed to call, right? And I'm like, I just I fucking can't. The phone is within arm's reach, and I, you know, my paper is in my hand with the phone number, and I can't, I can't do it. And she, I remember this distinctly. She just kind of like did like a little smirk and a kind of a roll of her eyes of just like, I can't believe you can't do this. Like, she didn't say that, but like that vibe, the energy was that. She's like, Okay, give me the phone, give me the phone number, like like that. And then she called and like made the whatever appointment, whatever. I'm like, and that was very helpful because I didn't want to do it, but it came with a big heaping side of guilt and all this other shit for me being a lazy mom, not able to even make a simple phone call. I'm like, you have no fucking idea. Like, I I I'm sleeping two, three hours a night, like for the last two years. Like, tell me how that's healthy. Tell me. Like, you want me to make a fucking phone call to make a yet another appointment on top of a cardiologist, on top of a gastroenterologist, on top of the neurologist, on top of whatever fuck you. I don't have time for this shit. I I can't, I can't. It's not like I didn't have time. Well, no, I actually did not have time, but I just I also did not have the mental capacity. Yeah, even if you had the time, right? So if somebody had come, well, barely had time, but if somebody had come in, barged in and said, You sit your ass down, I'm separating your laundry, and I'm gonna wash all this shit, and I'm you're gonna shut up. I'll be like, no, please don't. Oh my god, no, you know, I'll just say, you know, no, don't babysit my child too. Don't do it, don't force me into the shower. Um yeah, don't take me to a movie or a cup of coffee. Um yeah, you know, but the thing is, remember, I was so young, and my friend group was uh, you know, people who were like a little bit older than my age because I had my kids so young, right? Um, and so they they didn't know, they were still barely 30, right? And they didn't even know what the fuck to do. They didn't know anything about life and all that type of shit, you know? Yeah, not as far as being able to handle something like this. I should, I should clarify. Yeah, yeah. So it's like they we just people just don't know. They don't know, you know. But I mean, if I ever come across somebody who's like that, who is just completely overwhelmed, I'd be like, sit down, shut up, give me your kid. I'm doing your laundry and I'm cooking you six meals. Here you go, freeze them, whatever, whatever. Like, yeah, like I know what to do now. But if I ever come across somebody in that position, um, but yeah, at the time I didn't know, I didn't know what I needed. You know, all I knew was like I'd open up my drawer and there's no socks and there's no clean underwear, and I'm like, and I would look at the laundry basket and I'm like, I know there's that has something to do with this, but I don't know exactly what to do about it. Like, I did not know that I needed to do my laundry. Like I knew that it was kind of related, just like when, like, I don't know, like it would get dark, the sun would go down and it would kind of start to get dark in the house. And I would look at a light switch and I would look at a lamp, and I'm like, I think that's vaguely related to a solution to me not being able to see anything. And that's as far as I could get, Jane. Like it was, I could not, I could not function. I would just like sit there in the dark and then just oh, and like accidentally brush a light switch as I walked by or something. And I'm like, oh, holy shit, oh my god, that's what that's for, you know. So that's that's where my brain was, you know. That's what grief did that compounded grief on top of my aunt, my mom, and my daughter, you know, and lack of support, you know. So it was just it was a big ball of holy shit, yeah, that I don't care to ever experience again. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

Yeah. So those are some of the the strange reality of grief, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Well, like that here's another thing too that was that I found interesting. It's like even when you're young, when you're 24, you don't expect to lose a parent that you know, you expect to lose a parent when you're in your 40s, 50s, I guess, you know. Um, but you don't expect to lose a parent when you're how old was I? 22, 24, something like that. Yeah, I never expected that. And no, everyone's else, everyone else is just like, oh, oh shit. All right. Oh, sorry. You know, but it's kind of like quote, not as bad to lose a parent because you kind of expect to lose a parent. But I mean, still, she was, oh god, how old was she like 56 or something like that? 56, 57 when she died, which is still pretty fucking young. Very young. Yeah. So, you know, meanwhile, her sister, my aunt, had died when she was, I think she was like 38 or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Gee, well, that's what I was gonna say. It's not even like you had another aunt, like a maternal figure, yeah. Yeah, that could come in and step in and be there for you.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

No, no, I didn't know because my um my other aunt, um, because there was the three sisters and a couple brothers, but the the third sister, um, she lived way out in the in the way out in the middle of Wisconsin, and it wasn't, and she was she was the oldest. So she wasn't exactly gonna hop on a plane and just be like, Oh, hey, let me make you some meals and how are you doing? And you know, it's like we weren't close like that. Like, because remember, she got brought up into a family where her parents, you know, all my parent, my mom and her siblings, their parents had both, you know, had all these 14 kids, whatever, and had lost a couple of them along the way. So they grew up in that era with parents who were just like, you lose kids, that's what happens, yeah, thing. So it's like they didn't know how to deal with grief. I didn't know how to deal with grief. Nobody knows how to deal with grief. Like, what do you do? You know, and it hits at such random times. I could be in the grocery store and all of a sudden I'm pouring my heart out to somebody who's trying to stop bananas, right? Or, you know, or I would just like suddenly start crying in the middle of just whatever, right? Like a great conversation, and something would just like hit me, you know. And people don't know what to do then either when I'm just like suddenly weeping out of nowhere. They're like, Oh my god, you okay? Because people get squinchy with showing emotions, you know. I think it's a lot better these days, but I mean, yeah, back in back in my day, damn it, you know. Um, shake an angry fist at the sky, you know, it's you know it was a lot different than how did you and your ex-husband handle the grief together?

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Like, did he talk about it? Did he talk about your aunt, your mom, your daughter, his daughter?

SPEAKER_00 24:16

No. Okay. No, he um, you know, there was not a lot of discussion about my aunt. I mean, even when even before all this went down, my grandfather um passed away, and I was I was really, I was close with him. Like he was amazing. He was just like, okay, they're there, you know, type of thing. I mean, what are you supposed to do? You know. Um, and then when my mom died, um, my mom and my aunt died, remember, he, this was his daughter too, right? And so he was also dealing with the same level of stress in his own way, in that type of thing, right? And um, I remember at the time there was a book, I can't remember what the name of it it was, but it was about grief. And it should like the seven stages of grief or something like that, I think the name was. And I read it and I'm like, oh my God, you gotta read this. And it for me, it made sense at the time because it was the one thing that I could latch on to, right? So you have all these stages of anger, sadness, um, rep, you know, sorry, you know, and whatever, you know. And so when we were going through it, I noticed that I was going through each stage like one ahead of him. And so by the time I got to anger, he's on sorrow, you know, and then by the time I got to, you know, um relief, he's on anger, you know. So it's like we were never on the same page at the same time about all of this. So that, you know, strained things as well. But you know, we were, you know, at the core, like, no, we gotta hold it together because we've still got you know, we still have our other child, and you know, and then we had our other one after that, you know. So but it's parallel grieving then.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

It's not like you guys are grieving together, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:50

Yeah. And to me, it feels like like with when I look back at it, it's like I know that he held on to a lot of it a lot deeper than anything he ever expressed, you know. And um, you know, expressing really deep, vulnerable emotions was just kind of not, you know, a major part of our relationship, right? Yeah. Um, so that was, you know, that was that. So yeah, it was it really did feel like I was we were doing it together alone, you know, I was doing it alone, but together, you know, type of thing. Yeah. So that was that, yeah, which is super interesting too. Yeah. Because I mean, he, you know, he has his capacity and his ability and whatever he thinks, and all that type of stuff. And it's like, I know that there's a lot of stuff that you know he could never express to me and tell me, you know, and uh especially about all this grief with with his daughter and everything like that.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

So oh yeah. Well, and again, like we come from a society where men aren't given as much freedom or permission to emote, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:53

Oh, correct. And that was very much uh true in in his family to to a degree, yeah, about certain things, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Yeah, um who was picking up the slack? Like, was was it grief? Like, were you guys both walking around like zombies, or were like because what's going on with your son who's there while you guys are going through all the grief?

SPEAKER_00 27:19

Um you know, it's funny because there's a a picture, right? There are there's two pictures actually, and of school pictures. And the one picture, I actually managed to sneak my daughter in there, right? So I'm just like, hey, you know, we're doing photos. And he's like, This is school pictures, ma'am. I'm like, just do it, just whatever, right? So there's a picture that we have of him holding his sister and he's happy and she's just kind of like whatever, whatever. And then the following year is the thousand yard stare and just the blank eyes, and he's not smiling, and I'm like, fuck. Oh my God. You know, and it's like it's one of those things, like I didn't see it while it was happening because you you're in it every day and you don't notice these things every day, right? Like, yeah, but when I look back at that picture, I just I started crying when I first got that picture back from from the school. I'm just like, oh my God, you know, like kids don't show any outward signs of you know, grieving or whatever. It's like when they hear news like that, they don't cry like an adult does, like it's not their brain isn't formed that way, right? Yeah, so um, he's just you know, when when we told him that she passed away, he's just like, oh, okay, you know, and it's like, yeah, I would still check up on him and you know, make sure he, you know, had the hugs like to the best that I could and all this other kind of stuff. But um when I look back at it, oh yeah, I definitely coulda, shoulda, woulda, you know, I so much coulda shoulda woulda, you know.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

But I think I think that's where the coulda woulda shoulda it could have been support from family or friends to step up there.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

Cause I well, even during even before we had our daughter, there was not a lot of support for just our son, you know, who didn't have any medical issues, right? Um and you know, so it's like that was really it was shocking to a degree because one would think that when you have you know family members struggling with such a difficult situation that you would want to help. But the thing is, that's my idea of what I would do in that situation and not their idea of what they would do in that situation, right? And so that's where I stirred all this stuff up in my own head because I was not receiving the assistance and support that I would have given had the situation been re reversed, right? Yeah. And so that was it was that was also like like I'm grieving for the just like with my daughter, like I'm grieving for the life she never had. I'm grieving for you know her not being, you know, 35 and like seeing what how she dresses and what her opinions are and all this other kind of stuff, right? It's like I was grieving for um support that I never had from a family who's right who's right here, you know. Yeah, so but that's that's my own, yeah. That was I I I really I took the ball and ran with that, and I just really um made all sorts of things mean all sorts of things, right?

SPEAKER_01 30:17

You know, again, the human part of that thing like the human part of it, yeah. I I I would think that somebody is either very enlightened to go through that type of death, personal death, and not be affected and totally see, oh yeah, you know, the beauty of them being here, and like I I I don't imagine very I'm not I'm sure some people can. I I'm also sure it would be hard not to judge those people a little bit and be like, all right, are you either like, is there something fucking wrong with you, or are you just like full of shit, you know?

SPEAKER_00 30:58

You know what? I kind of feel like that now, right? Because I just have made it my point in life to be like aggressively, you know, self-improvement type of thing. And knowing that that was such a huge, you know, axe on the top of my head type of thing, right? Like, then there's obviously like the more shit gets piled on me, the more there is to heal. And I'm just like, okay, let's dive in, man. Let's just like that's my whole goal in life is to just clean up all of my karma, right? So if there is some kind of way that I'm feeling about something or whatever, whatever, I'm like, okay, there's I, you know, I welcome the triggers because that means there's an opportunity there for me to learn something new about myself, for me to um have a different perspective on things that you know I was uh, you know, thinking that would ultimately hurt myself, right? Like thinking, oh, this person's an asshole and this one or whatever, whatever. But it's like, no, I'm actually the asshole because I'm expecting, you know, XYZ out of somebody who's clearly not going to, you know, give it to me or reciprocate or whatever, right? So there's no, you know, it's it's all in my head. I'm the one that's making all of this stuff up, you know. And back in those days, excuse me, I was really looking for more and more evidence of C, I'm not supported, C, nobody loves me, C, nobody gives a shit. C, look at that, you know. And of course, once you start thinking these things, what's gonna show up? All sorts of, okay, you're right. Here you go. Nobody supports you, nobody likes you, here you go. Everyone's just gonna ignore you, nobody's gonna talk about shit, you know. So that's where the whole weapon eye is like, look at me, I'm a worry, I'm so strong, I'm so strong, I've done so much, I've come so far. You can never come this far.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

But okay, so again, as much as we're like joking about it, I really have to see that that was like an armored defense to get through it. And really the gift of grief, even though that sounds fucked up, is that now you're like, hey, I went through so much fucked up shit that I'm gonna see where's the lesson. I'm gonna see where I can fit into this. Like, I'm not gonna dwell in this shit because I've been through so much fucking more, and I'm not gonna spend the time dwelling in this. Correct. I don't I don't know how many people without going through something super fucked up and making it through, is able to gracefully navigate those feelings right away.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

Well, we all have that opportunity, and that's why, you know, that's everything that's fucked up that happens to us. So if somebody has a life that's a complete dessert life, right? Like everything's going your way, right? You're still gonna have a bill that gets paid late or a bank, you know, mishap, or you know, you're gonna whatever, your dog's gonna die, right? Like you're gonna go through something. Like you can't you even in your best dessert life, you cannot have it just completely smooth road the entire time. You're gonna have some shit that's gonna be a thorn in your side. And every one of those things is an opportunity, no matter how, quote, severe or not it is. Those are all opportunities for you to make something good of it if you choose to. Yes. Yeah. So, and when I say make something good of it, I'm not gonna be like, hooray, my daughter died, right? Like, I'm that's not what I mean. I mean, like, okay, so you know, if I lose my keys or I have a bank mishap and my funds get whatever, whatever, and they're like, oh, you are bad, you know, we had a, you know, whatever accounting error, you know, here, here you go. Um, you know, but that causes my, you know, causes like a um a domino effect with all my within all my bills or whatever. It's like, oh shit, that's something I have to deal with, right? But the thing is, how do I let that affect me? How, what beliefs do I have about myself that are going to be triggered when something like that happens, right? Do I believe that I am money is so scarce and that like resources are so scarce that I'm never gonna be able to recover from this? Do I believe that I am, you know, worthy of having things go smoothly, of having things be corrected and knowing that, oh, well, my creditors are gonna be just, oh, okay, oh, right, we get it. No, it's all right here. We're gonna refund you this, you know, overage charge or whatever, right? Like, which which direction? And the thing is, I get to choose which way I go, right? Doesn't mean I still don't have issues with that type of stuff because I'm still continually discovering things about myself, about my subconscious beliefs that I'm like, oh, okay, that's kind of fucked up, and I don't need to be thinking that way anymore, you know. But we still all have the opportunity to make, you know, to turn everything fucked up into a stepping stone for deeper understanding and more compassion and more empathy, not only for ourselves, but for, you know, every other thing on this planet.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

And I think that's where you hit onto it. It's not about not feeling it at all, it's about recognizing that you're in control. And instead of life happening to you, you can sit and you can choose to look at it one way or another. You can choose to look at it like you're a fucking idiot and you lost your birth certificate, so now you don't get to go on this cruise, or you can look at it and be like, Well, that fucking sucks, but where's the lesson in this?

SPEAKER_00 36:24

Well, you know, uh, I was not feeling in control of my life at all when all that shit was going down. Yeah. Like at all. I was completely out of control. Life was happening at me. I was not a participant. There, there was no participating in that. Like I was I was getting tossed around in hundred foot waves. Like there was there was no grounding, there was no, you know, sure footedness, there was no none of that shit was happening. And those, like, I I don't know. Honest to God, I don't know how I made it through. Like every night, every day, every whatever, you know, try to feed my kids, try to get up and remember how laundry works and remember to turn on lights and remember to, you know, that that hot water is a thing in the shower, you know, like yeah, you know, and how to drive a car that I have to turn like back in the olden days, you know, I had to actually turn a key to do that, you know? Yeah, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

Well, and I I I think that's the thing is like I've had many moments, and when I say moments, I mean years where like shit just felt like such an uphill fucking battle, and I felt so alone, and I felt like you know, I'm the only one that cares. It's like you're same thing, no one shows up for me. Um, and it's fucking exhausting. And like I wish in that moment somebody could have just been like, hey, like, let me let me come over and make you a cup of coffee. Come over and hang, let me just talk to you. Because I went so inter internal, um, and I felt like I had to to go through that shit alone. Where now I can look back and be like, okay, I really didn't have to wallow in that. So even though it felt like it was never ending and it felt so fucking real, looking back, it would have been easier to journal or connect with a friend, or you know, not not feel like I'm being a burden and be like, hey, I'm having a rough fucking day. I need to talk with somebody. And if that friend can't be there, I understand, but like I also know that that's not a friend that can help me through real life shit.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

Right. So that was my next question is why did you feel that you had to go through this alone? And then you had said um that you um felt like you were gonna be a burden. Is that why you did not talk to anybody?

SPEAKER_01 38:50

I think I think it's twofold. Um, I think being a burden to friends, like I don't ever like friendship, but when it comes to family, I think it's the disappointment of I don't even want to ask because I'd rather not ask and have them not show up for me than ask and not have them show up for me. I didn't want to be disappointed and let down. Compounded ouchies, yes, because that would have hurt even fucking more than the not helping. On top of yeah, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:19

Oof. You know, I think this is what I've come across too is friends get insulted when you don't come to them for things. You know what I mean? Like true friends are gonna be insulted about that shit. They're like, what the fuck? Like, you don't trust me enough, like you we're not good enough friends. Like you truly think that you're going to be a bother to me? That's ridiculous because the connection, connection is just one of the most important things, you know, and we all want it, we all crave it, we all seek it, no matter how you know, it comes in healthy and unhealthy ways. Yeah, yet um true friends are not going to buckle, you know. You know, it's like when I was going through all of this stuff, there were people who are just like, This is too much for me, I can't handle this. Like, yeah, yeah. I'm like, okay, then I you're that's one less thing. That's one less thing that I can that I have to deal with.

SPEAKER_01 40:15

Like, I can't yeah, you know, and on the flip side of that coin, they also this is what's so fucking hard, they're entitled to it being too much and then not being able to handle it. 100%, yeah, 100%. And and you just have to choose, like, okay, is that something I can accept or not?

SPEAKER_00 40:37

And there's no wrong choice. I just didn't have the energy to pursue any relationship with somebody who's like, I'm out, I'm dipping out, right? Yeah, like I just was so exhausted that there was just okay, all right, thank you, bye. Yeah, no hard feelings.

SPEAKER_01 40:53

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:55

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

So this season of my life is over with you. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

Well, you know, and then again, again, I will die on this hill, right? Like when the student is ready, the teacher will appear, right? And I look back and I can see at each different point in my life, not only with this whole thing with my with my family dying, but um at all different points where whenever I'm questioning something about life, or you know, some kind of like something like that, there is always, you know, one little article that I read, or there's um some little blurb I hear on a movie, or you know, some passing cashier says one little, you know, thing about whatever that just like really like sticks and like, oh shit, and completely changes the trajectory of where my thoughts are going, right? And different people will also filter in at that point as well, and be there for you during those stages that you're that you're in in your life too. So, you know, and it's so funny, you know, um, there's one example when I was going through a divorce, there was one woman that I had met um not long, like a few months before that, and um her and I got um pretty close pretty fast, and she helped me like through the whole divorce. And um, after that happened, she like through the actual moments, like she she's like, Okay, well, I gotta go now and that type of thing. And I'm like, oh, okay, all right. So it's like I know that she was there specifically to help me through that particular transition in my life, you know? Yeah. So yeah, it's so interesting, it's just so fascinating to me to see who comes and goes and where and when and all that kind of good stuff.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

That makes so much sense. And I think that's also sometimes it can take more time to have away from that relationship to feel gratitude than being in the moment of those relationships leaving.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

You know, I was sad when you know, when she's like, okay, I gotta go, you know, type of thing. Um, you know, because she really did help me, but I I get it, you know. I I you know, I understand the whole season, reason, lifetime thing, you know.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

Yes, yes, yeah. Well, and um, you know, I I hope you don't mind, but I'm gonna jump into it. No, please the book, the book that you I feel like that helped you process grief for Catalina.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

Oh, the book that that I did, yeah. Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

That was a huge catharsis, and and please like walk through a little bit of that, how you did it, like what made you do it, and the whole process, because I think that's like a real tool that somebody who's struggling, and if they have if even if they just doodle, like I think that's something that I'd never heard of a parent doing before. And I think it'd be a great, great thing to share.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, I mean, it's neuroscience talks about this too. Um, one of the best ways to really get everything out, you know, like with your brain. With your body, like the whole chemical flow, right? Is tactile, pen on paper. There is something specific about pen to paper instead of clickity, clickity, clickety on your phone or a computer or whatever. There is something specific about drawing it out, writing it out that triggers all the other things that lets everything flow and go and that type of thing, right? Like it increases your longevity, all of these things. Like look it up. So um, yeah, so there's that. Um, and so the book that I wrote was part of um the sketchbook project, um, which was part of the Brooklyn Art Library. And um, so they had some, they had little sketchbooks, and so I got the sketchbook, and um it was only 36 pages or something like that. So I knew I had to be concise with with my story, but drawing all the pictures and writing the story out and trying to condense such a massive impactful event in my life to just those pages. Um I I mean, I I really love that book. I feel like it came out really well. And um, there's a lot of people that that gave me a lot of positive feedback about that, right? Um, including you, right? Thank you. Yes. Um and yeah, so now it's housed in a museum in, I want to say Minneapolis or something like that. I can't remember exactly where, but that's it made its rounds like in around New England for a while in their little library mobile thing. And then um, yeah, so now it's it's not in New York anymore. It was it's now in I believe it's Minneapolis. I gotta look that up. But um, I do have it digitized and and all that kind of good stuff. And I have all the I I have copies of it, so but the physical copy is is over there.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

Um, but yeah, maybe we'll post it up on our uh Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask you if we could, if we could send a link to share. Um because you know, one of the books, it's in my audible queue. I haven't, but like speaking to exactly what you just said, it was talking about how to process grief and trauma and all that. And it the book title, it's called Opening Up by Writing It Down, How Expressive Writing Improves Health and Eases Emotional Pain. And it was, um, you know, it he has his PhD and he uh there's two authors. Um, but the premise of the book and why I got it is because it was talking about how um, you know, therapies are amazing. CBT doesn't work for everybody. Um, some sometimes talking about it can make it worse, but there's something about the process of literally just writing and not not needing to give it to anyone, but writing for like I think it was like 20 or 30 minutes a day, helps it to process and move out of your body. Yep. And I thought that was so beautiful because we don't talk as much about like trauma, the trauma of going through shit. And sometimes there's more complex trauma, which is even like another layer of you know, PTSD. You can have CPTSD, and I have found like the resources sometimes can be like, hey, this exists, but there's no and this is what you can do to help.

SPEAKER_02 47:22

Right.

unknown 47:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

So I love this idea of a book of writing it down, of you're not alone and you're entitled to putting your thoughts and feelings and being heard, even if it's just the pages hearing you.

SPEAKER_00 47:37

You know, the tears I teared on those on those pages, um, you know, you could see because a lot of it is just is ink and marker and things like that. And you could see like it all stains, like you know, from you know, and like the the ink is all kind of warped and stuff like that from where I like cried all over it. So yeah, it's it's true, it was a thing, man. Yeah, that was that was such a wonderful catharsis. And funny enough, um, I was only able to write that after I had um gone through the divorce. So at that point, I'm like, wow, okay, so this is what was in there, you know, this is this is what was in in the cells, this is what was in the deep, yeah. Oh, interesting. I wrote that a few months after I left, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

Oh, so that probably helped you really process a lot of shit more than just her passing.

SPEAKER_00 48:27

Than just that, yeah. You know, because it's like I did feel like I never felt complete really in in grieving. Like, how do you know when you're done? How do you know when you're done grieving a ch a child, you know, and your mom and your like how do you know when you're done? You know, it's like I look back at, you know, I mean, certainly, you know, when I was a kid and whatever, you know, we've had to, you know, we've lost animals and you know, lost you had to put a cat down on this and that, whatever, you know, like those types of things, you know. Um, how do you know when you're done grieving, right? I mean, grieving, you know, a hamster, you know, the hamsters that my cats kept eating, you know, like after your fifth one, you're just like, eh, all right, well, okay, you know, yeah, that's a little bit different, right? Than you know, losing a dog who's been your companion for 15 years, you know? Yes. Um that type of thing. So I don't know. I I I never really felt like you know, I I guess I felt like it was as good as it was gonna get, you know. And I didn't realize that, um, and again, the timing, right, is impeccable because it was only a couple months after I had left um that that opportunity had come up for you know for that book. And that just I was just writing and writing and writing, like it took me, oh god, maybe two months to to write that whole thing. I was just at it like full time, yeah. So yeah, yeah, that was pretty wild.

SPEAKER_01 49:48

Well, in wrapping this up, what's something grief taught you that you wish you'd never had to learn, but are incredibly grateful for having to go through and learn?

SPEAKER_00 50:00

Um, I would say the depths of emotion, the emotional range, right? It's like I think when you can go as deep as I myself went in that particular situation, and again, that's not comparing myself to anybody who's also going through their thing, right? This is just for me because it happened to me, right? Um, it taught me that the depth that I could reach in the lowest depth that I could go, the opposite end of that is an outpouring of emotion and love and caring and compassion on the other side. And it's just as deep and intense and impactful and saturated as the intense grief was, you know. So it's like they're both as intense, but on opposite sides of the spectrum. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:54

So it's like what's that on the it you're it's as in like you know that that much joy is possible because you had that much fucking grief. That much grief. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:07

So I'm I'm yeah, hey, you know, I'm here with this life and I'm living it. So yeah, this we're here to learn and all that shit. So I mean, and it really now I can look at it and say, you know what, I'm so thankful for that entire experience. It fucking sucked, but I truly am thankful for that that whole situation.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

So well and everything else, yeah. Yeah, and for anyone listening, like we're here, like we I I love talking about the shit that is difficult in society to talk about. Yes, yes, yes, me too. Please reach out, send us, you know, send us a question, send us a message, know that you're not alone, you know, even if it's not exactly the same, like we can at least empathize for you. And we just absolutely, yeah, and just we so appreciate everyone who's taking the time to listen. We appreciate you showing up week after week. And with that, you know who you are.

SPEAKER_00 52:11

We will say stay self-aware, stay a little unhinged, and remember that grief does not have to look like anything except for your own experience and you are so loved.

SPEAKER_01 52:23

Amen, sister friend.

SPEAKER_00 52:25

Yep, yep. Toodles, peoples.