Permission to Keep Living_Part I: Finding Your Way Through Grief

Content Warning: This episode contains discussion of child loss, death, grief, suicidal thoughts, and trauma.

What if the reason you're stuck isn't because you don't know what to do, but because you're waiting for permission?

In this deeply personal episode, Keri shares the unimaginable grief of losing her daughter, mother, and aunt within weeks of each other while navigating young motherhood, college, and survival. Together, Jane and Keri explore what it means to keep going when life breaks you open, how healing rarely arrives all at once, and why curiosity can become a lifeline when hope feels out of reach.

This conversation dives into grief, resilience, gratitude, self-trust, and the unexpected ways life offers us doorways forward. It's an honest exploration of what happens when you're completely stuck, how small moments can become catalysts for healing, and why the path back to yourself often begins with one tiny step at a time.

If you've ever felt overwhelmed by loss, unsure how to move forward, or wondered whether there's something more waiting on the other side of your pain, this episode is for you.

In loving memory of Katalina September 5, 1990- June 4, 1992

💫 Email us at theunhingedintuitives@gmail.com for questions, comments, or topic requests, we would love to hear from you!

🌿 Work with Jane-Marie: www.transformativehealings.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Before we begin today, we wanted to give a little bit of a warning that today is going to be a discussion on the death of a child and the will of hanging on when exiting is much easier.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

What if the reason you're stuck isn't because you don't know what to do? What if you already know exactly what to do and you're just waiting for someone else to give you permission? I'm Carrie. And I'm Jane.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

Welcome to Unhinged, The Intuitive Weirdos, the podcast for people doing the inner work while still very much being human.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Here we will explore deep topics that encourage our growth and mental health. No gurus, no dogma, just navigating through life's asteroids while trying not to spill your coffee on your morning commute. Just exploring with curiosity where we fit into the whole cosmic puzzle. What do you think about that one?

SPEAKER_03 0:50

It's the permission part, right? Like permission to live our own fucking life.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Yeah. Yeah. You know, okay, so I'm just gonna just right off the bat, I'm just gonna dive into this here. Okay. So there have been many times in my life where I truly did not know what the fuck to do. I mean, like, for real. And it always I would always go down this like shame spiral because I consider myself to be fairly intelligent, right? Like able to think things through and see all angles and all this other kind of stuff. But there's been times in my life where I've been truly just fucking stumped, right? And I'm going to give this story as briefly as as I can, right? While still getting the point across here. Okay. So when I was 22, I already had my son who was four. And um, I had a daughter who was born with Down syndrome and um heart problems, severe heart problems, intestinal problems, just all sorts of crazy problems, right? So it was a very, very taxing thing to care for her. Um she was in the hospital probably 50% of her life, and she had multiple heart surgeries, multiple intestinal surgeries, just one after the other, after the other, after the other. Our house was a full mini medical center with the oxygen tanks and you know, the apnea monitors and just, you know, whatever you name it. And we it's we had it, right? She had a colostomy bag and just all this other kind of stuff. So this is a lot for somebody who's 22 to deal with, in addition to already having, you know, my my other son. Um, so as she's going along in life, um, you know, we knew from the very beginning that it was gonna be very, a very difficult road for her um and for us as well. As a matter of fact, we were encouraged by the doctors right when she was born to just let her go, right? And right, yeah. And I got extremely indignant. I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? You took the Hippocratic oath, like you swore to save lives, and now you're gonna tell me just let her go. Like, which, you know, the fuck, like fix her, save her, like you promised. You made an oath to it, right? So anyway, so they they're like, okay, you know, so they did their best, right? Um, unfortunately, her conditions were just so bad that it just, she just couldn't, you know, it's it's just not sustainable. So by the time she was really in some bad decline health-wise, um, when she was nearing her second birthday, um, my aunt suddenly died, had a heart attack while she was mowing the lawn, go figure. Um, and um, right around this time, I had just found out that um my mom had a tumor um in her stomach that had already spread into her lungs and her brain and and all throughout all of her systems and the whole thing. So my daughter's in very bad decline. Um, it's finals week, it's in college, you know, that I'm going to. Um just all this stuff is happening all at once. So then my aunt dies, and then my mother dies the following day. And then my daughter dies a few weeks after that.

SPEAKER_03 3:54

And you're like 22, 23?

SPEAKER_01 3:58

I was 24 when when everybody yeah. So that's yeah. So from 22 to 24 was when, you know, she she was alive, right? So um she died just my daughter just died just shy of her second birthday. So um, so that was that. So yeah, I spent a lot of time um not knowing what to do, right? I how do you process that? Like I really had no idea what to do, how to process that, where to go. Um, there was no support network. There was nobody that, well, first off, there was nobody that had these exact same issues, right? Like all of our friends at that time were just like finishing up college, and I'm just gonna go, you know, live in Europe for a couple for the summer, and you know, oh hey, we're going down to Mexico, let's go woo, you know, and it's like, how the fuck am I gonna go to Mexico, right? Like, I can't no, I can't, no, you know, first off, I've got my son who's now six, right? And he's just lost his grandma, his great aunt, and his sister, right? So that's had a huge impact on him, you know. So there was just so much of all of this that just really put me in a position where I truly did not know what to do. There was no therapists that could help me. I tried. Um, there was no um no religion, you know. I had already tried religion and then I wasn't, oh, I wasn't about to go back. Um, because I already knew what that was, that was all about.

SPEAKER_03 5:24

Um yeah, so it's like I just and let me ask real quick too, like even when your daughter, like, so when you get the news and and the doctors, the experts are telling you, like, oh, just let her go, are you fighting that fight of alone, being like, uh, the hell we are, like we're gonna, we're gonna fight for her life, or or did you have any support?

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Um, the only ones that were fighting were me and my husband at the time. Okay. You know, because everyone else is just like, oh, you have a daughter in the hospital, oh, that's too bad. Uh sorry to hear that. Uh, that's rough, you know. You know, but then they had the, you know, and people when they hear this this type of thing, they don't either know how to react or they don't grasp the gravity of it, right? Like how severe she was and things like that. Because, you know, and then I look back at it now, Jane, and you know, seeing, you know, what we went through, and I'm able to look at it now from this whole completely different lens, yeah. Um, I understand where all these doctors and nurses were coming from because they've seen this a million times. They've been in the field 30 years and they've seen children with such severe um problems, you know, come through their doors in and out and in and out. And they know that the in their mind, the kindest solution is to just let the child pass, right? Because it's just a fight that's just so strenuous and so awful and breaks up a majority of marriages and you know, all this other type of thing.

SPEAKER_03 6:54

Yeah, yes. My sister um had to make the uh a similar choice. My nephew was born, um, and she had it ended up she had placenta cancer, and the tumor completely um sucked all the blood out of Leif, and he was born with a stroke, and they kind of put that choice on them. Like, okay, do you want to hold him and like let him pass away in your arms? Or do you want to have us do surgery on him? Best case scenario, he'll be a vegetable his entire life, have a stint from his head into his stomach, and there's also a good chance he'll die and you'll never be able to hold him. And my sister was like gutted because she's like, Fuck, am I an like, am I an asshole if I'm choosing to hold my son? And thank God she did have a doctor that was like, Hey, in all of my years, I've never seen a child with this bad of a stroke, like kind of giving her permission.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:01

And then also we have the same neighbor that I do the Bible study with. Her husband, who is the priest um pastor, came over and kind of consulted her. And so she was at peace, being like, okay, and then we were all in the room with Leif while he passed. And I can tell you that there's also some beauty, but for you, and not trying to take away from your story, no, no, no, that is for for you. I know for us, we were dealing with um, you know, uh losing my nephew. I had just lost my job. I was living abroad, I had to come home. The day I came home, he was born. Eight days later, he passed away. And then a week after that, my sister um found out she had cancer. And then, so I I little bit can relate to the grief on grief on grief, but in a totally different way. But for you, for having that much death, that is just grief stacked upon grief, stacked upon more grief. And and where did you find that permission to heal and grieve?

SPEAKER_01 9:04

The one of the pivotal moments, and I think I spoke about this briefly on another episode that we had done, is I remember sitting on my living room floor and I was hearing the neighbor dogs bark at nothing, and the neighbor had wind chimes going, and I was I was in such a level of PTSD that these things were such an irritant to me, and I was like yelling at these winds, shut the fuck up. Like I can't like any noise, like wind through the trees was too much of an irritant. I was I was too overstimulated. I just I couldn't. And I remember just sitting there looking at my clock and watching the second hand go and I remember thinking, five minutes. All I have to do is simply fucking exist for five minutes. Five minutes, the longest five minutes of my life. I couldn't even make it. I made it probably about 14 seconds, I think. And I'm just like, I I can't, you know, and it's like one of those things in the movies, right, where you see the second hand ha backwards, you know, and I'm like, what do I do? What what do I do?

SPEAKER_03 10:11

What do I do? Well, and I think that's when it comes to the stuck part. Some people can be stuck in that stuck part indefinitely.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Well, the things that really got me were number one, I had my son, my six-year-old, at the time. And I can't have him lose his great aunt, his grandmother, his sister, and his mother in one shot. Absolutely, absolutely not. Um, you know, so that was there was that, you know, and then the other thought that I had was there have been people, and I can't remember what kind somewhere in Afghan, I can't remember which country, but um, there was a devastating, catastrophic flood or tsunami or something that had come through and just wiped out villages. And I remember I had seen a story about one gentleman who had lost, you know, eight of his family members, right? And I'm like, fuck, you know, they all got swept away. The house was just, you know, right time, right place, you know, well, wrong time, wrong place, right? And just the entire house just nobody, there's just nothing you could do, right? And he just happened to be out, you know, at the market or just whatever, wherever he was, you know. And so he came home, and then that's what he came home to was just his entire family, you know, all his siblings and his parents and you know, all that the whole thing. And I'm like, wow, you know, if he can still survive, I can survive, right? And it's like I'm not living in a house that's in danger of being washed away in a flood, right? Earthquake, maybe, but you know, but you know, nothing, nothing like that. So I'm like, okay, other people have had way worse than me, and they're able to make it and they can do it. And oh my god, I'm like shaking right now. And um, yeah, so that was that was the whole thing. Those those are the two things of just like fuck, there has to be more than this, and just sitting there, just uh I show me like somehow, somewhere, there has to be more than this. There has to be.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

And what what was that next step then? Was it journaling?

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Was it you know none of that, none of that? There was a um a client of mine, um, because at the time I had a an in-home daycare.

SPEAKER_03 12:29

So um, you know, I had to, you know, and one of my Wait after after you lost your daughter, you had an in-home daycare during well during this whole thing, I I Oh my God. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

Yeah. While I was going to school full time in the evening and all this, yeah. I was like, Yeah. And then I'd like after school, I would go and visit her in the hospital and you know, that type of thing. So I would be at the hospital until like midnight doing my homework and stuff, you know, and then I'd come home and then have to get up at like six so I can, you know, take care of these kids that are coming in at 6:30, 7 o'clock, right? So um, so anyway, um, one of my clients um turned out to be a really good friend of mine um from Peru, right? And um, she has she was in touch with uh, you know, a shaman, right? And she's she's very in touch with all of this whole Wu thing, right? And she was just like, she just kind of helped me gently just kind of tiptoe into not so much the woo, but like the things that she would say were extremely different from anything else that any of my other like American friends would would say, right? Um, you know, like she would ask about her, she would mention her name after she died, right? She would say, How are you doing about Catalina? How are you doing about your mom? How are you doing, you know, about all these things, you know? And I'm like, oh my God. And then just her mentioning that would really um help me out because everybody is so scared to death of death, right? That they tiptoe around everything and they don't want to mention anything because they don't want to upset me. But the thing is, if you lose a child, or if anybody out there, if you know somebody who's lost a child, talk to that parent about their child. Because when you clam up and you it's it's like they never existed, and that makes it even harder to um to grieve because it's like, what the fuck? Does she just is she invisible? Like, did this never happen? Am I I'm you know, it's it's unintentional gaslighting, right?

SPEAKER_03 14:20

Yes. So there's that. And for you, did you find because I think I think death is so taboo and it's something we'd like pret we'd rather pretend didn't exist. I found with my sister, people not only would they they would sadly actually end up saying like really uh just shitty things, like, oh this is God's this is God's plan. And it's like fuck you. No grieving parent or grieving anyone wants to hear this is God's plan.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

No, absolutely not. Well, you know what? I had one person tell me, oh, well, you know, you you already have another child, and then you can always have another child after this. And I'm like, she's not fucking replaceable. Yeah, you don't go and make a clone of her, like the fuck, you know, but you know, whatever. That's that was I was so angry at the moment. But um, back to my shaman friend, the Peruvian, she um she would mention her name and then she would also um oh my god, well, what else would she do? She would just talk to me in a on a completely different level than, like I said, than all the my American friends, you know.

SPEAKER_03 15:29

Well, coming with curiosity and and sparking like healing within, I imagine.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

And very gently, yeah. You know, she's like, you know, what did you what do you think about this? You know, and at first she would mention these, you know, different topics of um, you know, about going further into death and and breaking out of like my you know cultural things. I mean, growing up as an American, you know, there's you know, whatever, right? Um you know, and just kind of gently helping me explore these types of things. So when she first talked to me about, I don't know, like let's, for example, like reincarnation or you know, just like the spirit realm in general, or you know, any of that type of stuff, I was just like, um, okay, yeah, I get it. And it does explain all these different things that I've been feeling and all this other kind of stuff, you know, my entire life and all that kind of stuff. But you know, I I don't know. I think I was just so just in that stage of the grief was just so much at that point that I just I couldn't focus on it. But it definitely planted seeds that helped later on, you know. Um because through, you know, since that happened, I would notice like every five to ten years, I would go through like another round of like going through the grief and I'd be in another position where I don't know what to do, you know. And there were several times during my adult life where I was like, I can't be here anymore. I cannot fucking do this. I am not seeing a way out of this. I'm I'm just not, you know, I don't, I can't do this. The grief is too much, you know. And it's like by that time we had already had our third child, you know, another boy. And so, you know, once the two boys who are now eight years apart, you know, they were, you know, they're growing up together. And so once my youngest one was getting through like, you know, the major chunks of of childhood, right? And is getting a little bit older in his teenage years and like the the danger zone is over, right? Um, then this whole, like all of that stuff, all of the grief and all that, all that type of thing was a lot of it was suppressed because, you know, I mean, I I I could deal with it a little bit, but not fully because I'm so busy trying to raise my children and work and you know, do all these other things, right? And so finally, you know, every once in a while, like I said, I would just get to these points where I'm like, oh fuck, I can't. Like it would come up, like it would inevitably just bleed out and crack open. And I'm like, can't do it, can't be here, not gonna do it. Like, I'm gonna check out, you know? And every single time when I was at my absolute worst, and again, I did not feel um support from anybody, right? Um catalysts every time because every time I ask, something shows up and I'm like, huh. So there was one time I was getting my oil changed, reading this magazine, Gulf Digest or some shit that I never would have picked up, right? And this little tiny article in the very little corner, you know, that I never um just whatever said you want to shift your life like completely, try this. 30 days, just whatever, right? And I'm like, I have 30 days, I suppose, right? And it said, in the morning and in the evening, name 10 things that you're grateful for, right when you wake up and then right before you go to bed. And I'm like, fuck, you know, and then some days I can only be grateful that um, I don't know, I have socks, I don't know, I I have a nose, I guess. I don't know, I have hair, I don't know, I've got my ears pierced, I guess, I don't know, something to be thankful. Like it was really difficult to find all these things to be thankful for, yet it works. Yeah, it works 100%, you know, and so that's the whole my whole point to this entire thing is anytime you make that inquiry, the answer is gonna come to you. A way, um, you know, a person that you meet, not by chance, right? Um, a stranger in the grocery store is gonna have some offhand comment that just like like shifts your whole like, wait, what? Record scratch, right? Like you're gonna come across something that's going to be meaningful to you, that's gonna allow you to just really take your exploration nugget, your little inquiry nugget, and just open that whole thing up, right? And of course, like anything, the door is open, you have to walk through and you have to carry that forward. But it's always going to be made available to you in a way that's gonna be meaningful to you, that you're really gonna understand that this is an opportunity for me to step through this portal, this doorway, and see what's on the other side. If you're brave enough to explore how fucking hurt you are, right?

SPEAKER_03 20:11

Yeah. Well, and I think that's like where most people don't have an intuition problem, they more so have like a self-trust problem. So, like you trusted yourself enough to be like, all right, fine, I could fucking do 30 more days, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Well, it was I it wasn't so much a yeah, no, it wasn't so much a trust as it as it was a desperation, I've got nothing left. Yeah, and so I've got yeah, so trust was a different thing, which has come up like more recently in my life, yeah. But at that time, you know, with that article, I was just like, I've got nothing left. Why why not? Yeah. Okay, why not? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:48

So then when did the desperation and those little nuggets coming in, like when when was that or was there a kind of a turning point when you're like, oh shit, like actually there's so much more, and like like more messages start coming in and more things, like more beautiful, more beauty shows up than gr to replace, or I guess mix in with the grief. Like, when did that start happening?

SPEAKER_01 21:13

It was a slow trickle, right? And it there wasn't any like poof, you know, bibbity bobbity boop, you're healed, right? Like it doesn't really. Right?

SPEAKER_03 21:26

I'd still love that to happen.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Right?

SPEAKER_03 21:29

My McMansion on 25 acres with a pool, but go on.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Um yeah, but it was just more of a a slow trickle of little things I'd just be like, oh, I I just got an extra, you know, $2 back on whatever, whatever. That's kind of cool. That never really happened before, you know. And oh, hey, somebody just, you know, said a really nice compliment to me. Oh, wow, that's pretty nice, you know. So it's just like little things like little by little that I would just kind of notice because of that. And I'm like, oh shit, I wonder if this happened. If this is connected to that 30-day thing that I was trying, you know? And it's like once you start, and once I started, I was really able to just really get rolling with it and just really find some things to be grateful for, you know. And it's like I still practice that today, like gratitude all the time, up and down, left and right, like for everything. Yeah. And it just when you do this gratitude, and again, it's cliche, right? Everybody and their brother says be grateful. And then you're, you know, you're going to notice all these things. But it's so true because what you think about, you bring about, and what you you are creating your universe, your world all the time. And if you're stuck in a depression or a grief or a sadness or an anger or whatever it is, you're just going to keep on that hamster wheel and you're just going to keep generating that same type of thing, whatever you're thinking. So it's up to us to want to shift out of that. And I was just so fucking sick and tired of feeling sad and unsupported and alone and just so sad and no, no, you know, there's no comfort, there's no relief. There's no, there's no getting out of it. Like there has to be something better. There has to be, you know. I was just so sick of it that it's like, oh, okay. Yeah, I'll take anything other than this.

SPEAKER_03 23:19

And anything in a way, too, I think that's honoring your daughter. You're not, you're not pausing your life. You're living your life because of her. And you're taking this short amount of time that she got to be here, and it did in a very fucked up way open up these doors that you were able to take the opportunity to step through and find the beauty and the joy, even through all that gnarly pain.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, thank you. Yeah. Um, yeah, it's been it's been a very interesting ride, right? Yeah. You know, just having that. And it's like I don't want to live my life saying, oh, well, I had this happen to me. So, you know, whatever, whatever. Yet I know that I am extremely different than how I was, you know, from from when that incident happened. I mean, I can feel like I felt at the time like 85, 90% of my soul was just like peace out, bitches, right? So it's like the piece of me that stayed. I'm like, I have to be here, I have to, you know, do something, right? So the piece of me that stayed, that little five, you know, 10% that stayed, um, is what raised my children barely, right? And of course, that created, you know, all sorts of issues with them because like you, how can you, you know, for me, I how can I raise these, how can I raise these children with any degree of you know, giving them what they need fully when I'm just a shell, I'm a ghost myself, right? Like I was there was nothing for me. I was tapped out, you know. So that created all sorts of you know, other things in in my head, you know?

SPEAKER_03 25:01

Yeah. But you know, it's but that's a part of all of this, right? And it's not perfection, it's how do we keep going? How does that 15% hold on? Because even though it's such a small percent, it's fucking the strongest part of us, right? Yeah, like it had to be strong to survive that. And how do you go from that little bit of like fuck? I'll just stay another day. Okay, I'll make it through this minute. And how do you start actually like fucking living life again? And I, you know, really, because I don't think everybody necessarily makes it through. That is a lot of grief and very young, very, very young. Um, and that could absolutely destroy some people. And I'm sure it wasn't this like rosy, you know, merry-go-round ride once you started healing and looking for gratitude, but it definitely was a trickle that I imagine turned into a faucet one day.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

Well, yeah, because the more you practice that and you really get into the practice of gratitude and inquiry and um, how can I do better for myself and therefore my family, my community, my my world, right? Those are the things that do that. And it's like I can say now, absolutely, it's a freaking fire hose of blessings day in and day out, you know. Obviously, I still have speed bumps and all sorts of shit, you know, that I still have to contend with. Yet, right, you know, yet my overall attitude has completely shifted from one of utter despair, utter hopelessness of ever getting out of any type of situation like that, into one of empowerment and confidence and and now the trust in my own self to I fucking got this. Yeah, I got this. Yeah, I got this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:57

So it sounds like a little bit of a roadmap is like even when you are stuck, just finding like one, even if it's like a little toe in front of the next toe, like some type of movement, right? Something, and eventually that turns into steps and then strides. Yeah, and then it's it's yeah, it's not about the time, right? So I think sometimes, um, like you hit on it too, when you connect into something bigger than yourself, and however that is, like whatever that you know, I always say universal energy, or even God, I actually feel comfortable with, but not God in the white floating dude.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

God, God is like the beard of the toga. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

But I think once we start connecting within and trusting, um, it's it's finding the time, like, and then I do come back to trust. Finding the time that, like, oh, that's not just uh, you know, a weird opportunity. That is uh that is the universe opening a door for me and and I can take this opportunity to step through.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

And putting a foot on your ass and shoving you through it. Right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:11

Yeah, because it's more fun, it's more fun when the door's cracked open and you're not actually getting kicked through.

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Well, I mean, that's my biggest joke, right? It's like how many times do I have to be beat over the head with with the spiked baseball bat, right? Before I finally, you know, will listen or do something about what I'm supposed to be doing, right? About my situation that again, I'm the one, I'm the common denominator, you know, of for all the the shit and all the fuckery that's that's in my life, right? So yeah. But yeah, no, I mean it was, it certainly wasn't easy. And I certainly don't ever want to negate or take away from anybody else's issues or struggles or traumas or anything like that. Because what I've realized too is because I did use it, I did weaponize it for a little while, right? Like, look what I've been through, you know. Um, completely unfair and completely douch move, right? Because it doesn't matter if, you know, it's not a competition who's had the most trauma, right? Yeah. Yeah. So it's like I, you know, it took me a while to understand that just because somebody is completely and utterly in despair because, you know, their car broke down, right? You know, and they're in that same level of grief and despair that I was for, you know, losing three people at once, right? That doesn't mean that they don't have anything to cry about, right? It's like that's their threshold, that's their level. And it's like, it doesn't matter if you're a teaspoon or a bucket, right? Like your capacity is your capacity. And so, you know, it may be just a hangnail that does you in, and you're just like, fuck it, I'm I'm done. And you throw yourself on the floor and you just I can't go on, right? And it doesn't matter what it is as long as you recognize that there is a way out and that there is, you know, it's like, and there always is gonna be somebody that's gonna say, babe, come on, let's go get you a manicure, and that hangnail is gonna be gone and you're gonna be okay, right? Like there's there's always gonna be an opportunity for you to, you know, to have that exploration and to um have the opportunity to want to get out of it if you want. Yes. You don't have to shell. Yeah, yeah. Because you can sit and be a victim. I mean, I was I sat and was a victim for a good decade or two, yeah. So yay me.

SPEAKER_03 30:32

So what was it then that finally like what or was there a point where you feel like you finally like were able to step out of like that as your identity? And instead of just being a chapter in your and not not not to take away from your daughter at all, but just not to define your whole life? I'd say in my 40s, my early 40s.

SPEAKER_00 30:55

Yeah, so good, you know, 20 years later. And and how do you still honor your daughter then?

SPEAKER_01 31:06

By understanding the my role in her coming here, right? Um my body was, you know, I I allowed, you know, I was the catalyst for three souls to come here and have an experience on this planet, right? Yeah. And you know, when you grow a human or when you care for a human or, you know, whatever it is, it's like it's kind of a big deal, right? And you're allowing and nurturing and helping these souls become who they came here to be, right?

SPEAKER_02 31:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

And so, you know, just honoring her now just looks like, you know, just remembrance and um a gratitude for her to come here and give me this experience as well, you know. And that was that was a thing, that was a very big shift for me as well, is having the gratitude for that entire experience, right? Because I definitely would not be who I am if I, you know, just had a cush life and you know, who knows how bad the arrogance would have gotten. I mean, yeah, I hate to even think about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:25

Well, and can you speak a little bit more? Because I think it it may sound counterintuitive when you say the gratitude for what you went through with your daughter. What, like specifically, like what are you most thankful for? Because I think that is helpful to know, and I guess curious minds.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

Most thankful that I had an experience that not very many people have had, right? Like it's a pretty exclusive club, like losing a child, right? As a matter of fact, in English, we don't even have a word for it, right? Like we have a word for no parents, that's an orphan. We have a word for you know, a spouse, a widow, a widower, right? But we don't have a word in English for losing a child, right? Yeah. And so because it's such a rare and unique experience, um, I'm very thankful that I had that because where else am I gonna get that? Yeah, you know, and it's like, I am certainly not wishing, you know, like lost, like right, like that's that's not it at all. No, but it's like that was the circumstance. And so now after doing all of this work around it and and that type of thing, it's um just really being okay with the entire thing, and just know that in the grand scheme of things, again, not to dismiss anybody who's gone through anything similar or even not similar, yeah. But it doesn't matter if it is a hangnail or if you lost all eight of your family members in one shot. It doesn't matter. The grief is the same, the level of pain is the same, it doesn't matter the circumstance, it matters what you do with it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 34:05

Yes, yeah. Well, and I think you know what you highlighted too is like you are honoring your daughter by finding the beauty in the time that you had with her. And that is gorgeous because you unfortunately you can't go back and make it any different. So going through something like that that is so fucking horrific and being able to come through, even if it took you know two decades to fully be somewhat at peace. Because I know I know that hole is always there, but I know that doesn't go away. But to find the beauty in, okay, I can see, I can see that how she helped me and and I was able to be there for her for her short life. That is beautiful to me. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

You know, it's not so much a hole that's never filled, right? Because you I I don't like to I don't I don't like to to liken it like that, right? For me, it's more yeah, no, it's it for me, right? It's more of a that happened and that's it. You know, it's it's it's along the lines of any other memorable event that you would have in your life, right? Like the birth of your first child or you know, your whatever graduation or whatever significant markers in your life that have impacted you, right? Like it's it's it's one of those things that, yes, that definitely altered the trajectory of my life, certainly. Um, and you know, the way I think and you know how I operate in the world and that type of thing. And I don't know what it would look like had it been any other way because it wasn't any other way. And all I have is right now anyway, so it doesn't matter, right? So it all just comes circular, you know, all the way back around to it, just it doesn't matter what did or didn't happen. It only matters what you do with what happened. Yeah. And it's like some things take longer than others, right? Like for me, a hangnail is gonna be a lot quicker recovery time than apparently it was for you know, for my daughter, not much, you know, not to mention my mom and my aunt, you know.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:03

Well, and do you think that your view, like if somebody would have told you at the time when you were going through this, hey, you'll get over it, it'll just be like a chapter in your life and you'll be cool. Do you think that would have been received well at all? Or do you think that is something that like an individual totally has to arrive at, if ever?

SPEAKER_01 36:23

I think it's individual because when people told me that, I was like, fuck all the way off. Yeah. All the way off. Yeah. Fuck off. Yeah. So um, yeah, because people did tell me that too. It's like, oh no, it's okay, you know, you'll get over it, and you know, and just what I'm like, you don't know. You don't even have children, or you've never experienced the loss of a child. You don't know. You know, and it's like I, you know, I hate to dismiss other things because we do, you know, humans do have a capacity to have compassion and understanding for other people that are going through difficult times, certainly, right? Yet a lot of these things are purely experiential, right? Like you're not gonna grasp the true lesson unless you're feeling it, right? It's like you can read a book about swimming all day and night, and you can lay on your bed and practice your arms and kicking and all this other kind of stuff. But until you get in the water and you feel your buoyancy and you get your breath control and all that stuff, you you're kind of not knowing what swimming's all about, right? Yeah, you know. So yeah, like everybody's got their own, their own thing. And getting out of it, again, for me, is like the curiosity, the willingness, and that's when that stuff's gonna show up, and it's gonna be up to you to walk through that door and trust that there's gonna be something better on the other side. You know, and it's like for me, I think I was at a point of such desperation that anything would have been better than the fucking misery I was in. Just the absolute I just I can't even describe it.

SPEAKER_03 38:04

No, because like you said, you you you can't describe something like that. That is an experience, and it's not an experience you wish on anyone, but it's new fucking grief that you can't even begin to share how gnarly it was. Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

Just I I don't recommend it. As far as tragedies go, don't don't do don't do that. Like zero out of it. Go find something else, right?

SPEAKER_03 38:29

Well, no, just with that, like thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing that, and and thank you for you know, that is a true experience of when we could feel stuck in a way that you were able to navigate through. And I think sometimes just knowing that somebody did get through something fucking gnarly and they came out the other side, I think sometimes that's helpful.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

I think, yeah, absolutely. You know, it's like I remember when my daughter was extremely ill, I mean, just really ill. And I was in this little tiny waiting room that they reserve just for people with like extra fucked up kids, right? And there was another, there was another dad in there, and he had a daughter that had some kind of condition. I can't even remember what it was, but it was like, you know, string of like, you know, 14-letter words, but I don't even know, right? And um, so the both of us were just kind of comparing notes, and it's like, I don't remember this dude's name, I don't remember what he looks like. All I remember is he was taller than me. Yeah, well, that's kind of everybody, right? But he was like, But he was just like asking me, so what about this? And like, does she do this? And how about whatever, whatever? And what about you know? And I was asking him the same thing. Well, what about your hospital stays? Can she go home? Can you whatever, whatever? And he, and we both had a very parallel, you know, story. And both of us, and we're just like, oh my God, thank God. Like, I'm so sorry, you know, for your situation and your case and things like that. But it also is such a huge relief to know that there is one, one fucking person on this planet who understands what I'm going through, who's not a nurse or a doctor that I'm now like BFFs with because I'm there all the fucking time, right? Like, yeah. So it's like talking to another parent who had a kid that's pretty much the same level of fucked up, who was, you know, roughly the same age and all this other kind of stuff was a huge, you know, thing. And again, I think that was that was also a divine, you know, tool, just kind of like a totally got this, you know, kind of little booster of just like hang in there, like you know, yeah. You can do this.

SPEAKER_03 40:23

Well, then I guess, you know, any any last thoughts then? Like, and thank you. First of all, again, thank you so much for sharing this. But any any last thoughts, any last wrapping up?

SPEAKER_01 40:34

Trust that there's whatever you're afraid of is bullshit, and that anything like on the other side, it's so much better than you could possibly imagine. Than you could ever imagine. You can't the best that you can imagine is only the floor of what's actually possible. Your highest ceiling of your imagination is only the floor. Yeah, so get out there and just do it, write the book, take the trip, book the flight. Don't worry about how are you gonna pay for it, how are you gonna whatever. Fucking just you do it. You go have the experience, you go smell the salt air, you know, go put your feet in the dirt, you know, go hug some puppies, lay on the grass, lay on the grass, let the let the warm sun shine on your face. Just do, just do it, hug the trees, you know, play with a beetle, you know, do the shit.

SPEAKER_03 41:33

Do it. Yeah. Well, with that, stay self-aware, stay a little unhinged, and remember this is not a race. Discovering who you are may come in layers, and the journey may be trying at times, but it is always worth it.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

A man, sister.