The Truth About Shame No One Talks About

Guilt and shame are emotions so many of us carry, often without questioning where they came from or why they feel so heavy.

In this episode, we explore the deeper layers of guilt and shame not as something to fix or get rid of, but as signals that are trying to show us something.

We talk about the difference between guilt that guides us back into alignment and guilt that is rooted in conditioning, the kind that keeps us stuck in cycles of self abandonment. We also explore how shame forms, how it lives in the body, and how both of these emotions are often tied to early roles, beliefs, and experiences we did not consciously choose.

This conversation is an invitation to shift your relationship with guilt and shame, to move from judgment into curiosity, and from self criticism into self understanding.

There is wisdom here if you are willing to listen.

💫 Email us at theunhingedintuitives@gmail.com for questions, comments, or topic requests, we would love to hear from you!

🌿 Work with Jane-Marie: www.transformativehealings.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I'm Carrie. And I'm Jane. Together we are your intuitive weirdos. Welcome to Unhinged, the Intuitive Weirdos, the podcast for people doing the inner work while still very much being human.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

We are two intuitive, self-aware women navigating healing, motherhood, burnout, and the beautifully chaotic reality of life without the love and life filter.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

If you've ever felt a little too aware, a little too deep, or just slightly unhinged in a world that doesn't make sense, you're in the right place.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Here we will explore deep topics that encourage our growth and mental health. No gurus, no dogma, just navigating through life's asteroids while trying not to spill your coffee on your morning commute. Just exploring with curiosity where we fit into the whole cosmic puzzle. Hello, beautiful listeners. Welcome. We are going to be talking about guilt. Guilt as a signal, you know, a signpost, you know, not as a way of life, right? So, you know, it's been kind of cropping up in my life lately. And want to talk about this and what we feel about it, what we think about it, and what you guys might feel or think about it. So, yeah, so here we go. First off, we're going to start with our intuitive poll. My question was what do our listeners need to hear right now? And what I got was I'm pulling from the Whispers of Lord Ganesha deck by Angela Hartfield. And what I came up with is understanding. And I'll read this out. Clear vision is the gift of seeing with not only your physical eyes, but also with your spiritual eyes. The eye of Ganesha symbolizes the state of grace that is reached through your willingness to do your spiritual work in this lifetime. As you focus on your life lessons, you reclaim the true meaning of your being. You have the talent and determination to continue on this course before you. The eye holds the key to your higher consciousness and your gift of awareness. Look for the deeper meaning in ordinary experiences. Work on being more observant. Remember to live in balance with your physical and spiritual bodies. Take the time to look at your current circumstances from a different perspective. Free yourself from limiting thoughts and beliefs. You are receiving an opportunity to move beyond your past. Accept that the fear from the past, even as you move forward, serves a greater purpose. Imagine yourself soaring above this current situation and gaining a greater perspective. It is your ability to rise above the conditions that will benefit you and assist you in flourishing. Ganesha asks that you give yourself permission to be free in order to attain the joy that your heart desires. So that kind of hits me too, especially with the topic of guilt. Yeah, as an encouragement to be able to rise above it.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Excellent. And my my question for today was what do we as humans need to know about guilt? And I'm pulling from the Wisdom Keeper's Inner Guidebook. And what I like about this one is it tells the guidance through a story. And the card I pulled was transmution. And it's this kind of like, I don't know if it's a man or a woman, but they have long hair and it has like these sacred geometries, you know, kind of throughout their forehead, and there's these little birds of wisdom to me that are there. And then here's the story, my wisdom story. Which overall the topic is for the card. The only way to transcend suffering is to move more deeply into it, embracing every feeling and event that comes to you. And the wisdom story is I had a recurring nightmare as a child. It always ended with a bearded man hovering over me with a giant blade as I guarded something behind my back. I always woke up screaming just before the blade touched my chest. My father was a weak and quiet man. He didn't speak of his oppressive family past or believe in much of anything. My mother was a woman who religiously embraced the dogma of the church, convinced a negative entity was attached to her daughter. She dragged me to church. For years I prayed for forgiveness and to be rid of the evil, but the nightmares only intensified. By the time I was a young woman, I avoided sleep at all cost. One night I was so overcome with the hopelessness that I broke down in front of my father, finally sharing the dream with him. He became strangely curious, as if he needed to know more. He his surprising response awakened a curiosity and courage in me. That night I willingly went to sleep. Though I still awoke before the knife fell, I was able to retrieve more information. The next night, the same happened. Then the next. It got to the point where I could enter the dream at will like a sleuth, always leaving seconds before my murder. My father hungered for more details each time that I came through. It was as if the two of us were assembling pieces of an ancient puzzle. One night I detected faint lettering on the bearded man's belt. I drew the three letters for my father. He ran to his room and rushed back with an old book full of Nordic symbols given to him by his grandfather. He'd never mentioned. Immediately, he saw the meaning of the three symbols: journey, gift, and joy. I'd never seen my father's eyes glow like that. I couldn't wait to go to sleep that night. This time I let the dagger plunge into my heart. There was no blood, no pain, just radiant light filling my chest. Turning to face what I had been protecting all those years, I saw a treasure box overflowing with jewels. The bearded man reappeared, this time beaming with kindness. Instead of a sword, he held a picture of my father as a child, and in his hands he said, Tell your father I ask for his forgiveness. Tell him I love him. My father and I never were the same after that. Our ancestral relations strengthened, healed, transformed us. Today there is nothing I am willing to see or feel. I uncover treasure after treasure. My gift to you. I'm here to ask you to move forward with that which terrifies you. You may think you have a fixed identity, but you don't. You are forever changing. You are designed to bump up against limitations and then to dissolve into something else. Transmutation. It is the key to our evolution. I come here when it's time to hold nothing back, to embrace everything, and to live dangerously, release all definitions of who you are or what you're capable of. Get comfortable with fear, willingly take the lid off Pandora's box. And if you truly want to transcend your suffering, move deeply into it. Surrender. You can make a quantum leap at any moment, and your true purpose will be revealed. So for me, and especially for today's topic, I think this is so perfect for guilt. And how do we transmute guilt into something that can actually serve us? And I think, especially like in this story, and this is why I so love Oracle cards and tarot cards, just as a tool to help us explore what we're not quite seeing on the surface. Like this whole thing, a lot of times guilt is something that we try to like hide away and avoid at all cost. And that fear, I think, can sometimes block us from the gift that is underlying under the guilt. And sometimes if we sit in the discomfort of what is and we start asking more questions and getting curious, I think that's kind of where like the magic sauce lives, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Yeah, yeah. Couple of thoughts on that. First off, that story is absolutely incredible. Like I just took so much from that that was amazing. And then as far as like guilt being something that's hidden away, I think for me it's more, it's not so much as it's hidden away as it is it's it's not something that's on the forefront, right? Like it's a lot easier to be angry and you know, solve that problem. It's a lot easier to be sad and solve that problem. And it's just like guilt just kind of like hovers in the background, but it doesn't really, it's not ever a lot that just is as much in the forefront, right? I guess that's how it's been for me anyway.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

For me, I look as guilt as sometimes like something I don't want to address, and I'd rather just like shove it down and ignore it. Um I think like I think you know it's so funny because like we've both done landmark, right? And you know that one time where they like we were just about to go on a break, and the person looked at us and they were like, Okay, so when you come back, you're gonna share your deepest, darkest secret with the person next to you. And in my mind, I was like, fuck that, because I do think that there's some guilt, right, around things that we don't want to share, or like there's something negative, and that's why for me I view it as like shoving it down. But then what was so awesome was I remember the person that was sitting next to me after the break, like they went up and shared in front of like three or four hundred people, and their sharing was that they had been a coke addict and cheated on every partner and like exploded their like just started unleashing story after story. And I sat there and I was like, what I have to say isn't that so he's not gonna judge me. But also on the flip side of that, like I wasn't sitting there judging him, and I think sometimes when it comes to guilt, we it and it does kind of closely tie into shame, I think. And it's like a fine balance between the two, but I think those are things that like those are emotions that we tend to try not to uh feel, like we avoid yes, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

Yeah, yeah. You know, I really liked when you're reading how it said just boldly go, right? Like the only way out is through. You cannot push all these feelings away, they're gonna resurface. And the more you push it down, the more it's gonna, it's gonna, you know, it's gonna leak out of somewhere. Like if you try to plug this hole, it's gonna create a new leak somewhere else, right? And that's just gonna keep on happening until it's just inevitable. And either we have like full down, full meltdown spiral, or I don't know, we just act erratically or just whatever, or have a health condition, something it's gonna come out in some way, shape, or form, right? And it's like we we do have to feel these feelings, and it sucks and it's shitty because it it fucking sucks to just feel these things sometimes, you know.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

Totally well, and like how do we start viewing guilt more as just like a little cosmic nudge that's saying, hey, here's something for you to sit and explore more with. Because I do think it's a lot easier to just avoid feeling those feelings. But like, for instance, okay, so when we were driving back in the car this weekend, you know, how our friend was talking about how it's like we were talking about how kids connect with parents. And I started feeling guilty because my kiddo is not connecting with his father, and I actually felt some guilt around that statement, and I had to sit with that. Like, why am I feeling guilt in this moment? And and I think sometimes it is just sitting there taking a moment to be like, okay, what is this? What's coming up? And I think for my kiddo, I also have to honor his feelings, and there are two other people involved. I am not involved with that relationship right now. I am not hindering it, I am not promoting it, I am actually really trying to stay neutral to it, but it really had me thinking like, do I need to be doing more? And I think sometimes when it comes to the guilt of relationships, there is a lot of nuances to it, right? And it can bring up a lot within us. And when it comes to my ex, there's a lot of history there. And uh, I spent a lot of time looking at what were the things that I could have done differently. And I think I think I can confidently say there's no guilt behind that not working out. I clearly see that we were just not a good fit for one another, and that doesn't make him a bad person, nor does it make me a bad person either. It's just sometimes in life I think we are not a good fit. But I did use that tool of guilt because I was feeling guilty in that moment to just kind of take inventory of where I was. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

I went a little bit, I took a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of no, that's what we're no, that's what we're here for. You know, and then this is what I was gonna say too. It's like, when do we feel guilty? And you know, like under what circumstances, right? It's like for me in my parenting, like certainly there's plenty of moments where I'm just like, I handled that very poorly, right? And then there's other circumstances where I'm like, I I was working at the very best of my capacity, which is certainly not my capacity now, right? You know, my kids are older, I haven't, you know, my kids very young, and I didn't know anything. I'm not like dizzy squat about life, right? So trying to raise children while I have no idea how to navigate the the human adult world myself, you know, who the fuck put me in charge of toddlers? Yeah, what was that all about, right? You know, so it's like I'm doing the very best that I can under my circumstances, and that's that's all I have, you know? And it's like what do I do now? You know, the only thing I can do is have open and frank discussions with my kids and just say, Hey, I yeah, this this didn't go so well, did it? Right? And sometimes that's very well received, and sometimes it's not, you know. And what do I do about that?

SPEAKER_00 13:17

Well, and on that note, like I don't, I personally don't think we're responsible for other people's emotions. And I've been toying with that a lot more lately because we really can't help, we can't choose how other people feel. Now, on the same token, we can do things that can cause emotions in others, and I think that's where like we need to start really pausing and being like, okay, is an apology warranted in this moment? Is a deeper conversation warranted in this moment? Or do I just need to give them space to say whatever they need to say? Because even if it wasn't my intention to hurt someone, if I cause hurt, I think like while I'm not responsible for their emotions, I am wanting to hold space for somebody that I care about to listen and let them get it out so we can process through it together. Absolutely, absolutely, man.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

I'm just yeah, sitting in sitting in this, man, pondering the unponderable, as promised.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Yeah, and I think I think that's where like that's where these conversations go. And it's also like, you know, on that same note, how much questioning is needed because you don't want to just sit completely in circles and think about it, because I think the human brain tends to come up with a lot of excuses, right? Or reasons why, or justification. I think that's kind of human nature. Well, yeah. I mean, we all want to protect our egos, right?

SPEAKER_01 14:50

It's like, you know, how much of that is I did the very best that I could under the circumstances. You know, and in being authentic to myself now, I can no longer uh compress myself to conform to other people's expectations. Yes. Right? Like it's just it's it's not, and I'm not only talking about children, I'm just talking like any family members, really, right? Relationships in general. Relationships in general, yeah. I mean, it can be anything, it could be your family relationships, it can be, you know, your coworkers, it could be exactly right, yeah. Yeah, and it's like how do you navigate that without being a dick, you know, while still being authentic to yourself.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Or do you, I don't know, do you care in all aspects? Like, I know for me at work, I have people I truly care about and I connect with them on a regular basis. I have other people that while I wish them no harm, like they could fuck all the way off and I wouldn't care. You know, and it and it's funny, and it's like I am also okay with that. I am okay with not having to care about everyone. I think in reality, I always love this. The rule of thirds that whenever we meet somebody, a third of the people are gonna like just hate us, not know us, just cannot stand us, right? A third of the people will be indifferent, and then a third of the people will just love us. And I am no longer trying to appeal to the two-thirds the other two-thirds that can't stand me because that's not that's not my people. And so as I grow older, I do care on making more time for the one-third that I absolutely love. And and even in that one third, I mean, I think selfishly, I need a lot of alone time. Like I really just need alone time to recharge. So it is also like, how do I fit in the people that all that I care about? Because I know I have like there's been times where just shit has been fucking going on, and at the last minute, I have had to cancel plans, whether I'm sick or whether I'm just like mentally not having a great day. And I know I know the majority of my friends totally understand it. And if they did the same, neither one of us would care because we just get life fucking happens. But there are some people that I do like regard almost as family, where they have said, Hey, I think that's pretty lame, and you really hurt me. And it's funny because on the one hand, I couldn't fucking do different, like I could not be present and be with somebody else. And so why should I not be able to honor myself? And that's the biggest thing, and that I'm no longer taking the guilt of I would rather make myself uncomfortable so I'm not hurting your feelings. However, I can also give you space to tell me, like, yeah, you want to say that was fucked up, okay. Um but given the choice, I would fucking do it again the same way because I don't want the guilt and obligation informing my decisions anymore.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

You you just can't in the in the spirit of authenticity, right? And it's like that vibration is I don't know, I can't remember what the percentage, but whatever. It's higher than love, than putting out love, right? Yeah, being your authentic self, unabashedly, unapolog unapologetically, is the best example of how you can live your life and and what others can gain from it or see in you from that, either they will or they won't, right? And it's like, you know, I remember times in my life where I was, I very much felt the pressure of, you know, performing or doing this or going to this activity or you know, just whatever, or doing whatever extra for whatever, right? And it didn't sit right with me and I didn't like it and all this other type of stuff. And it's like, okay, I'll do it, but this is it just it's cringy and it's sticky and it's heavy and it's gross and I don't like it. And it's I know at some point this is gonna come out, but right now I can suck it up, right? Yeah. So, you know, and and I did like for a long time, I let a lot of resentment build up because I was mad not at the other people or other person, but because I did this to myself. I was the one that didn't set boundaries on this, right? I was the one that's just like, no, thank you. No, yeah, you know, and it's like, and I know people who will, you know, who will say, like, for example, uh I don't know, years ago, hey, you know, will you help me move this weekend? Whatever. And then most people will be like, oh, yeah, I can't. I'm sorry, I already have an obligation, you know, any other time I would, maybe next weekend I can, you know, give you know, volunteer a couple hours, whatever, whatever. Yeah. And they give an excuse and a reason and this and that, whatever. But I do know a couple of people who are just like, oh, hey, will you help me move? Oh, no, thank you. End of conversation. Yeah. End of story. No explanation, no nothing, just a gentle, polite boundary. And it's like, wait, you don't do that? You don't have to give an excuse. Like, people are not gonna hate you. It's like you don't have to have a valid enough reason for them. You don't have to explain yourself. You don't have to like, oh, I hope my reason is good enough so that they don't hate me by not helping them out. Or right, it's like, no, who gives a shit? If I have somebody to help me move and they say, Oh, uh I'm giving this big long story, and it's like, okay, just say no, right? And then I've had people say, Oh, no, thank you to me. And I'm like, damn, that's actually kind of refreshing. But on the flip side, yeah, if somebody's gonna get angry at you for saying no, then do they even deserve to be in your life?

SPEAKER_00 20:25

Like, are those really the people you want to surround yourself with?

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Well, there are people in my life that that well, that were in my life that are no longer in my life because of that. Yeah. And it's like I it's unfortunate because you know, I love these people very dearly. You know, yet again, I cannot I cannot squish myself into some tiny little box just for the sake of making somebody else feel comfortable at my expense. Like that's that's that's kind of on them to, you know, if I'm acting in the very best of my ability, to the very best of my capacity with compassion and love for myself, there's gonna be there's gonna be shrapnel, right? There's gonna be damage done when you act in a way that does not conform to family obligations, to social pressures, to whatever it is, right? Like maybe your parents are like, you know, you're getting a little long in the tooth, you're getting a little bit old here at the age of 26, so you better start getting married and having some children because, you know, grandbabies, right? Or whatever the situation is, right? Like it doesn't, it doesn't matter what the situation is. There are going to be people in your life that are going to be hurt by your choices. And it's like I that's where I get kind of hung up. It's like I'm acting in the very best of my capacity to have my boundaries set with love and compassion. And I don't want anybody to think for a fucking second that I don't act without having to think in three. 160 degrees in every different angle at every possible outcome and every other way that this is going to hurt somebody without knowing that I put all that behind that. Right. It's like I'm not going to act until I've examined all of these things. And it's like, if I finally act, just know that I have thought about this and I am so sorry about the consequences if you are upset by my actions. Yet I must do what I must do for myself and not contain myself anymore for your satisfaction or comfort.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

And that is so there's a couple things that stand out with that. I think I don't feel that need to think 360 degrees around. I really operate more from okay, and and I where I do agree is that 100% taking inventory, I think doing the inner work and really owning up to our own shit is like the baseline, right? I really think I think this world wouldn't be as gnarly as it is right now if a lot more people reflected more often. And that is not saying like I know the answers. I am saying like you go fucking deep within, like you talk to your spirit guides, to God, to whoever Allah, whoever you connect to, whether it's you know divination tools, whatever, but you take the time to check in. And and you know, if it's not on a daily basis for like just even just a quick two minutes, hopefully it's a deeper dive, like weekly, right? And looking back and reflecting on situations where you can do different. Now, when it comes to me making decisions, I really operate more from all right, like what is the best for me and my child right now? Because and and that is not, I don't know. I think we do sometimes just get to make a decision for what is best for me in this moment, and that is not to say, like, if the choice is I get to go have fun and somebody fucking dies, well, yeah, no, like, right, you know, absent absent of that, but I I don't feel I'm just feeling less responsible for other people's emotional reactions because I can't control how they're gonna react. And I don't think that's my responsibility. And on the flip side of that, I also know, like, you know, someone close to me that they they fucking act however they want, and half the time they're the biggest fucking dickweed. And their response is, what? I'm just a bitch. I also don't think that's okay. I don't think it's acceptable to be a fucking dick knowing you're being a dick and just make wild choices from there either.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Well, yeah, because that does have an impact, right? And that's that's another thing. It's like whatever action you do or don't do is gonna have an impact on on people in your circle. You know? You know, but it's like how much of this is conditioned in us from early on, right? This this guild being a a leftover signal that was just imprinted upon us uh early on, you know, versus our truth, right? Yes, yeah, it's it's it's a it's an issue of letting that conditioning exist without letting it define our new way of being.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

Well, see, and for me, I think that conditioning versus truth, that's like a good dividing line between shame and guilt. And and for me, I think shame is a fucking worthless emotion. I think that's something external that people place upon us. I think, you know, when it comes down to like something you've been told as a little kid, for me, for instance, my family has hammered it into me. I'm too emotional, I'm too angry, I'm too this. Yeah, you know what? In some instances, they're fucking right. But also within the family unit, it's a hundred percent true. Within my living life, it's not always true. So, how much is just having kind of like some fucked up family dynamics that play into this and like you know, not wanting to sit in the shame of being told that somehow if I'm too emotional or too angry, that that's bad. Where I think the truth lies, and for me, like okay, where guilt can factor in as like this cosmic nudge that can help me is okay, I there have been some instances in my life where when I have felt slighted, I've just gone full fucking nuclear, like scorched earth. I'm gonna fucking get you back because you have wronged me, right? So, like in you hurting me, I am now justified to be the biggest fucking dick ever. And I think of this like in a work instance. I got written up or not written up, I got a vertible, which now looking back, a vertible is fucking nothing. But this dick we did it just to try to put me in my place, and so I responded with fine, you want to fucking play this game? Let's fucking play. I think that's gonna be your biggest fucking nightmare of an employee, and just enough within the line that you can't fire me. Well, it's just compliance, I love it totally now. There, the truth is I was choosing to be a dick. And did that help anyone? No, and like I can't say I exactly felt guilty about it. I'm not gonna lie. I just also unfortunately have that like revenge in my nature, but I am trying to get better about it. So, like now, I'm looking back and like, you know, my poor boss, I don't give him a hard time anymore because his penance were earned, the revenge has been exacted, but also like moving forward, do I ever need to make somebody else's life that much of like a fucking living hell because I think he was being a dick to me? No, right? Or I don't know, maybe I can reserve it for certain instances.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

Right? Well, it's oh my god, there's a couple of different ways to go about this. See, because like for me, I don't think that shame is not a useless thing, but I don't think that it's part of authenticity, right? Because it's like for me, when I was growing up, I was shamed because you know, an A minus instead of an A plus is a failure, right? Like that's an absolute failure, you know. Not to mention that I'm the first person in my family to not go to college, right? Or to complete it anyway, or to get some kind of paper degree hanging on their wall, whatever, right? Some paper of importance, some paper of something that somebody deems important somewhere, right? Which never never was important to me, right? Talking for another day. You're right, exactly. So, but for me, it was a motivating factor, right? Like, oh my God, I have to, you know, I have to get this this A or this A plus, right? But the motivating factor was connection, acceptance, support, you know, all the things that, you know, weren't present generally, right? And so it was a very motivating factor, you know, and then that just kind of carried on into a a bit of my adult life as well, of just like, I must perform and overperform in order to receive what I need to receive, right? So in that regard, I don't think that shame is is a useless emotion, but it's it's certainly not a healthy uh motivator for sure, right? What's your what's your definition of shame? I'm my very character is is at question and is made to feel less than because of things that are impossible to achieve. Right. Like say somebody is struggling with an eating disorder, or is I don't know, their sense of humor is this way, but they're expected to have a humor like this, right? Or they're maybe they're naturally boisterous and they're expected to be calm and quiet, or maybe the opposite, maybe they're calm and quiet and they're expected to be naturally boisterous, right? And it's like being shamed for who you are at your core, and you know, things that you, you know, personality traits that that that you can't necessarily alter, right? Like that type of thing. Like that's that's what shame is, right? So it's like for me, I took it as I'm just not smart enough. I'm just not smart enough to achieve this, to get 100%, you know, A's all the time, right? So that's that's how I internalize that. So it's like I always had to, you know, work harder, work faster, work more, do the entire like group projects love me because I was the one that did fucking everything. They everyone else just got to sit around with their thumb up their ass, and I'm just like, nope, that and I got I did the whole thing, right? Yeah, and yeah, and it didn't get me any more when I look back at it, it didn't get me any more bonus or it didn't get me anywhere more ahead by killing myself by quadrupling the work that everybody else did or didn't do, right? So it's like, yeah, it's uh it was it that was again another rabbit hole on shame.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

No, just for me, it's really solidifying shame is something external forced upon us, and guilt is something that comes from within.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

Well, I took that shame, yeah. Well, I took that shame and ran with it. So that was internalized, right? Yeah. I took that, like I believed it because somewhere in me I believed that there was some kind of you know, you know, basic flaw, like a flaw in my baseline, you know, character, like blank slight me, right? So I took that and internalized it and made it mean something. It made it mean that I made it mean that that I'm not worthy, that I'm not good enough, that I need to perform more, that resting is for weak people, you know, all this type of stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

But how has that shown up for you in a positive way? Resting is for weak people.

SPEAKER_01 31:33

Oh, well, I've completely shifted my lens on resting. I mean, my God, resting is absolutely mandatory. Rest rest is mandatory. Self-care is mandatory, that's not optional. Yeah, you know, and it's like rest was seen as a sign of weakness because that's how, I mean, especially in in American culture, that's that's what we've been conditioned to do, right? Is just work, work, work, and then just retire. And then by the time you retire, you're too exhausted for all this fucking work that you can't even enjoy your retirement. So just go ahead and die, like you know, whatever, right? Chew you up, spit you out, type of thing, right? Yeah, so it's like, no, no, no, no. There's balance in all of this, you know. And it's like I really love seeing like the Gen Z and the Gen Alphas and all this other kind of stuff, just be like, no, I'm not gonna do that. Like they don't tolerate that bullshit, and I love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

Yeah, I think it is, and that's where for me I look at shame as like I'm just I'm not, I'm not fucking holding on to, I'm not internalizing it. It is not mine to fucking own if for because for me, shame doesn't motivate me. Like, I think about raising a very high, strong-willed child. There was a lot of shame placed on me for being a single mom. I remember one time my little sister said to me, which I just called her out, but oaks, she was explaining to me this guy that she was dating and how he's a single dad, and you know, he's like has to work so hard, and I wouldn't understand, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, Well, I mean, I kind of do understand, like, and she was like, No, you don't get it, he doesn't get any help. And I and I just remember in that moment thinking, here I am feeling like I don't get a lot of help from from my family, and she's telling me stories about how this dude travels all the time and how he goes on dates all the time and like does all these things, and in my mind, I'm like, so does he just leave this five-year-old at home? And the answer I knew was no, right? So he is getting fucking help, but we have sometimes these blind spots where it's like men being a single parent is like glorified, and single moms are vilified, where it's like, oh, it's your fault, it didn't work. Totally another topic for another day. But then the the guilt, and I think it it was more shame actually, around having a very strong-willed child is like, you know, people not feeling I disciplined him enough in a certain way, and like also, those fuckers don't have to go home with me at the end of the day, they're not there through the moments of like trying to parent him, and like I did have like where the shame turned into guilt was oh, I need to show everyone that I'm being a parent and that I'm disciplining him in the moment and like all these things, and it's like fuck that. I wish from the beginning I would have been like, I'm not taking on your fucking bullshit or your parents. You're gonna think I'm a horrible parent regardless of what I do because you just want to have fucking opinions. And if you want to offer me help and guidance, I will listen to your feedback. But if you just want to fucking judge me, then fuck all the way off.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

You know what? You're gonna get judged whether you act or you don't act, right? Like you cannot please everybody, right? Like, you know, and then same thing, like with my kids, my kids were, you know, were opposite personalities, right, growing up, right? And you know, my young, my oldest one, when he was a child, when he was very young, you know, he was he was a little bit more quiet. He was, you know, he'd hold my hand across the street, you know, that type of thing, right? Whereas the younger one was just like, fuck off, I'm out of here, right? He's just like, I'm on my own track and I'm gonna do my own thing and whatever, whatever, right? And, you know, when I was when it was just my oldest one, you know, and I've got this wonderful cooperative, you know, toddler, I'm like, wow, oh my god, I'm the perfect fucking parent. And I had a friend who had a kid the same age and he was more rampunctious and just kind of getting into everything type of thing. And I was very judgy. I'm like, that's because of your shitty parenting. Like, if you had, you know, done things the way I do, because of course I'm the perfect parent, right? I'm a I'm the perfect parent before children and you know, and then I was a perfect parent, you know, while I had kids, right? Yeah. And then when my second one, you know, my youngest one came along, you know, and I saw that type of personality where he was just that's just how he is, you know. And I'm like, holy shit. Yeah. So I kind of apologize for that whole thing for you know, I'm like, I get it. Like, this is this is how kids come. It's a crapshoot. You have no idea what kind of personality is gonna be coming your way, you know, when you have kids. You just you just don't, you know.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

And I think like, I mean, you and I've had this conversation a lot, right? Like, I think part of that not feeling like you belong, not feeling like that's like societal norms being placed on us. But if you're born into a world and you have two double fingers like right out of the womb, right? Like you're not gonna fit into societal norms. And it wasn't until I stopped putting the pressure on myself, like to fit in into whatever this imaginary fitting in into is, that I started feeling a little bit more comfortable. And then when I was like, well, wait, if I don't fit in, why the fuck how how would I be expected to raise a child that's gonna fit in?

SPEAKER_01 36:57

You know, and that's the interesting thing too about fitting in, right? Because we all need community, we all need support, you know, and then as we come into this world as babies and you know, grow to be toddlers and stuff, like the only family we have is the family we have, right? We don't know any different, you know, and that's where we find our initial community and our initial support, right? And then when we get older, we realize, hey, that was kind of fucked up and I did not get what I needed, and it should have been like this, or maybe you did have a wonderful life or somewhere in between, right? Like it's there's everything runs the gamut, right? But it's like, even what I've noticed is even the most loving parents, the most aware parents that are just raising their children with the most love and the most whatever, they still come out with a kid who's just like, well, this should have happened and this should have been this way and that type of thing, right? It's like we all love to sit there and pick at that stuff because it's just kind of an easy, natural thing to do. But it's like every parent, no matter where they fall on the scale, I believe, does the best with the tools that they know how, the tools that they have, you know. And it's like, again, it all comes back around to it's up to us as parents to be a little more aware and a little more conscientious of ourselves and know our own selves so that we can better help understand our children's personalities and teach them and allow them to grow, you know, supporting their natural talents and their natural interests and their personality versus trying to, you have to look like this, you have to act like this, now sit down and shut up now. You have to finish it up, you know, that type of thing. Like school says this, you gotta put, you know, do this. A family says this, you have to put that, that, that, that. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

So and I think I'm gonna amend what I said earlier a little. I think only our kiddos are who we're responsible for emotionally, and helping us like navigate through their feelings. I do feel more obligation towards my kiddo, where you know, I've had some friendships that were so beautiful, but I don't feel that same responsibility of how they're feeling. Which, for instance, I have a friend, and for 10 years, like we had our babies a day apart. You know, we grew up and we would see each other all the time, and like I freaking still do have love for this person, but our friendship came to an end over something very stupid. And in my life, there have been many times where it has been very easy for me to just walk away and be like, this person's dead to me. And as I've gone, as I've gone older, I've tried not to have that attitude. And I did at one point try to reach out and repair, and it wasn't well received. And then later, like another year later or so, they came back to me because they were going through some things, but they never addressed any of the shit. Like it wasn't checking in on me, it was how can you reassure me in what I did was okay? And in their storytelling, I was like, Well, fuck, I don't even know you anymore. I really don't know you as a person. So, like, I and that's where I realized like it is okay in friendships to view these people as a reason, a season, and a lifetime. And we don't have to have anything but gratitude for how that relationship showed up. I don't have guilt that that relationship isn't here anymore. I don't have guilt around that, right? Because I can now just look back and be like, hey, that person was there for me. I was there for them. They didn't feel like I was showing up for them anymore, and I couldn't show up any differently. And now, like as we're growing, like we've grown apart. So it is, it's interesting where, sorry, and I'm I know I'm like kind of talking in a circle, but I realize relationships with my children I view very different than relationship with immediate and extended family versus friendships.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

You know, that's that's interesting too, because you know, you start out by saying, Yeah, well, your obligation is to your children. I mean, obviously, right? You know, and then my my thought on that is yes, absolutely. And I didn't realize until way later my obligation is also to myself, right? Yes, because when I was raising my children, I was a lot harsher than I should have been, could have been, right? It was a come on, you're fine, you know, suck it up, right? There was not a lot of room for, you know, teaching them how to regulate their emotions and to navigate, you know, difficult situations and things like that. It's just like hey, come on, no, you're fine. Let's don't worry about it, you know, type of thing, which is pretty, you know, it's it's it's not a good healthy way to raise children, right? And I absolutely love that you are so much more aware and conscientious of that, right? Like that's that's just so important about that for that type of thing.

SPEAKER_00 41:46

I've had my fucking moments too of just not like, no, I mean, let's be real. I've had many moments where I've had to be like, oh fuck. Like I mean the pooch on that one, yeah. Yeah, no, and I've told you, like, my whole idea on parenting is I'm gonna do the best I can and pay for therapy for the parts I fuck up, right? And that is fair, fair enough. Not not to give myself permission to be a shitty mom, just to give myself permission that I'm fucking human. And you touched on the regulation piece, like I've realized I wasn't able to teach my kid regulating when would have been developmentally appropriate because I hadn't learned how to fucking develop or uh regulate myself.

SPEAKER_01 42:27

Yep, same thing.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

And so, how can I teach what I didn't even know myself? And now, you know, especially this last year, like I've been doing a lot of deep dive and soul retrieval in therapy, in Reiki, and like really taking that next deeper look inside to the point where now I can say, like, fuck, dude, I can regulate my shit a lot more, but I couldn't have done different in those moments when I lost my fucking shit and did hurt my kiddo or did hurt a friendship or did hurt a sister, right? Like, yeah, I think that's part of being fucking human. That's why we're here. One of the reasons, yep. Yeah, yeah. So bringing this conversation, I think, kind of full circle, and just sitting with the word guilt and you with shame, because I think you view that also as a tool. Yes, I I think guilt really just helps us to sit with like, all right, where do I need to grow more as a human and do better? And like, what do I need to address and own up to? And if there is shit, then I fucking own up to it and apologize when needed. And if if I can literally look at myself in the mirror and say, honestly, I I think I did the best I could, then that's another thing. Or if I'm sitting in the mirror and my fucking arms are crossed and I'm like inky face, then I also might try to recognize there's probably still some more shit to look through.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

Some residual ego being bruised happening. Yes, been there, done that. Yeah. Yeah. You know, at the end of the day, we all it all comes down to we really are doing the very best that we can for ourselves and our families and everyone else, right?

SPEAKER_00 44:13

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:15

So, and then any lasting thoughts on guilt and or shame and how you plan on like really taking a deeper dive or using it even more than you have been using it?

SPEAKER_01 44:25

You know, immediately like my first thing is like, oh, okay, so this is a red flag. So what am I not taking responsibility for? Right. So just immediately looking at whatever, you know, just doing a whole big, you know, 360 deep dive on where I can take responsibility for whatever's happening, and then really be okay with the outcome, right? Of I did act in my very best way in this particular situation. That's that's the only thing I could have done. You know, and again, like you said, just apologize for how that impacted others. Yes, you know. Other than that, you know, I mean, you can't, and even after an apology, you cannot d dictate other people's reactions if they're gonna accept your apology or if they're gonna be, you know, loving about it, or you have no idea. And that's after that, it's kind of out of your hands. Yeah, because you don't know their reactions, it's out of your control. And if there's something out of your control, then it there's no point in like ruminating over and over because you're just you're it that's not useful at that point. It's not a tool, it's it's you just really digging in and wanting to feel shitty about things, right?

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Well, and there's not the if you're not gonna gain something out of it, like there's not enough minutes. Why days, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:38

Right, why bother? Yeah, yeah, all these emotions can be just so used to our advantage and our are to learn something from. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:46

Well, and I think fucking journaling through a lot of this stuff, like I think journaling has has been one of the most profound tools for me when it comes to healing. Me and really writing pen on paper helps me actually physically get it out. Yes, yep, yep, yep. Okay, yeah. So with with that nugget, thank you so much for taking the time to listen until we meet again. Stay self aware, stay a little unhinged, and remember healing doesn't have to be graceful.